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Author Topic: Samsung NX1000  (Read 59223 times)

andy_s

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Samsung NX1000
« on: January 12, 2013, 04:44:18 PM »
I want to setup a 3d photobooth [3d (human) model printing] - with a phyical high-street presence. Lee's setup is incredible but I have reasonably limited resource and [more importantly] no experience / very limited workflow knowledge - so this will be a huge task.

I've gone down many of the discovery routes [kscan3d / reconstructme (interestingly getting SDK for Leap soon), Artec / Creaform etc] but, I believe, photoscan is definitely the product of choice for quality models that [I hope] the market will provide a living from.

Multiple cameras are, of course, a pre-requisite of the business model - the android wifi remote trigger of the Samsung NX1000 looks promising. While I understand that a handful of diodes [or even an arduino/teensy++ with a little C++ control] and a shed load of old canon eos550D's will crack [part of] the hardware nut i'm wondering if anybody has experience of the [multiple] Samsung NX1000 along with photoscan that they could share ?     

andy_s

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Magnus

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Re: Samsung NX1000
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2013, 03:08:37 AM »
Hello!

I think one thing you need to check out with that camera is if there is any delay when you trigger multiple cameras over wifi. If you will use them with flash then it could get tricky if there are any delays between the cameras.

Regarding your idea, I am working towards something similar and thought I'd share the way I am going forward.
The configuration of cameras I am intending to start with is consisting of mostly Canon 1100D with the IS kit lens.
The reason for this is, cost, they have remote shutter socket and the kit lens is supposedly quite decent (see this review for example http://www.photozone.de/canon-eos/404-canon_1855_3556is_50d). Drawbacks are for example that there is no mirror lock-up so one has to keep that in mind when syncing with flash.
They are 12,2MP but you also have to consider the optical quality of the lenses you will use and another factor is processing time and what kind of output quality you will need from Photoscan.

This will depend a lot on what size of figurines and what kind of 3D printing process you will offer.
I mean if you use a printer with low resolution it would be a waste if you process it in photoscan at the highest settings if all the detail gets lost anyway. That is one point were ReconstructMe and Kinect might actually make sense.
I have actually been thinking of a hybrid system with high quality head from PS and body from RM, too early to tell if that is workable though.
Ofcourse an added product which might make sense is offering the 3D model to the customer, then higher quality might be warranted. That means longer processing times though which ofcourse could be offered for a price reflecting that.
Another important point to consider time-wise is cleanup of the model and preparing for 3D printing, be sure to calculate that properly.

Also lighting is something I would suggest really looking into. Myself I am still torn between flash or maybe going completely continuous light.
I currently am experimenting with this LED light http://www.leds.de/en/LED-lamps-and-luminaires/Ultraslim-LED-Panels/Eco-LED-Panel-warmwhite.html since if you have continuous light sync is not as critically important and it opens up future 4D possibilities. For that particular light flickering is an issue if you need high shutterspeed.
I will hopefully be able to share more in the not too distant future about my setup, so much is still a work in progress and currently I am looking into good solutions for the camera configuration and rig.

Best, Magnus.
 

mala

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Re: Samsung NX1000
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2013, 01:07:15 PM »
I think this is quite an interesting camera and certainly the way Samsung are going with these WiFi cams is interesting for other uses other than the intended upload your life to Facebook.

The fact that they are using android for the newer cams should in theory make it easier for custom apps/ control to made.

The NX1000 can be triggered with a wired remote by the way..it appears to connect to the mini USB port,so if the rest of the wifi software can do all the image transfer and "live view" for multiple cams it could be handy little camera

Infinite

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Re: Samsung NX1000
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2013, 01:42:51 PM »
I can honestly say from experience dating back to 2008 (stereo photogrammetry using pairwise cameras with Dimensional Imaging software, before using Scanner Killer by xyz-rgb) that anything below 18MP really isn't great. You get OK results with 12MP but it's not ideal.

Also if you want to use continuous you need super bright light, as you have to stick with ISO 100, AV around 10 to minimize DOF, which can be restrictive. So if you don't want to sync by light then you need bright continuous light sources. Which can be uncomfortable to subjects. Hence why they get actors to wear dark contact lenses on the lightstage at USC ICT.

Prime lenses are best for image quality. The key is sharp, focused, contrasted images. As much detail as possible, for good reconstruction.

Ideally you want access to USB, trigger and continuous power for your devices. Once they are running it's best not to have to physically touch them again, until you shut down. This way you can re-use camera alignments (very effective). Also sturdy, rigid rigging for the cameras.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 01:50:09 PM by Infinite »
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fabberlounge

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Re: Samsung NX1000
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2013, 05:13:55 PM »

Hi

It looks like that we are all working on the same tasks, Bodyscanning and 3D printing, in order to offer photosculptures for all... Maybe you are also inspired by the Omote project from Japan (handheld scanner) or the already existing threedeeyou ( structured light) from Madrid, there are also other companies like Makerbot,... are already offering that service. I think its great, I would call it the real 3D Photography, getting photorealistic copies of anyone... I am working on that project for more than 8 months now, exploring the market, trying out different systems ( David, reconstrucme with  Kinect, Agisoft with a Canon 650D)... At the moment it looks like that Agisoft wins the race, but the other technologies are not that far away, just a matter of time and money... Anyway I am just about to build my multicamera system ( thanks again to Lee Perry being a great help)- maybe we could come together somehow - sharing the market ( its a huuge marketplace) I am open for any discussion on that...

if you are interested, just send me me a pm, I am located in Vienna/Austria ,

Regards, Andreas
Yes, we scan !

mala

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Re: Samsung NX1000
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2013, 05:17:55 PM »
@Lee...I know you were mostly answering the post by Magnus above but FYI the NX1000 is 20MP
and has some pretty good reviews across the board for image quality.

Infinite

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Re: Samsung NX1000
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2013, 05:37:12 PM »
@Lee...I know you were mostly answering the post by Magnus above but FYI the NX1000 is 20MP
and has some pretty good reviews across the board for image quality.

@Merry...sure. Only thing I would wonder about that, is port access? does it have a hard trigger port? if so custom cord? or 2.5mm or 3.5mm. I don't buy into the whole wireless thing until I can see it working on more than 10 cameras, reliably. USB2 or USB3 ports? also Fixed Power Adapter? SDK support?

20MP looks great, but all depends on lens and final image quality. Can the lenses swap out? I'm all for new gear as long as meets certain criteria and performs well. If so... sign me up!

I've actually found that I have hit a hard limit or plateau now with regards to scan quality. No matter how many more cameras or MP I throw at the system. Now 94x Cameras, at High it doesn't add much at all, it sometimes hinders quality. So this means crossing over to Ultra but that means 5x more length in processing times and you must not capture any blurred images at all, otherwise you get serious noise.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 05:42:30 PM by Infinite »
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mala

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Re: Samsung NX1000
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2013, 05:56:38 PM »
yes the lens can be swapped, there's a few primes out at the moment..but i'm guessing we'll see more lens options in March when they release their other new NX cameras.

As I said above in this thread, remote trigger weirdly seems to be via the micro usb connection..you can buy an official remote (it is just shorting pins not actually sending a command..would have been cool if it was though) or just make an adaptor.

The problem then of course is that with a trigger connected you can't use the USB port for anything else..
No idea how they are making this work..my best guess is, if the usb port does not see power on usb pins..then the 2 pins that would normally be data ? are being monitored for a "short" which would trigger the shutter.

So you end up reliant on the Wi-Fi for remote view finder, camera settings and image transfer.
Which initially may be a pain, but I think with a bit of work this could actually be made to work for multi cam rig.

Either way it seems I'll be getting a NX1000 in the coming week as someone said they'll buy me one as a birthday present.
So I'll do some tests at the end of the week and let you know how I get on..if i don't blow it up ;D

regarding the "upper limit" on cams/MP and moving over to ultra build...yep that's why we need Network processing so desperately...it will make everyone's life so much easier.

Infinite

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Re: Samsung NX1000
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2013, 06:02:35 PM »
regarding the "upper limit" on cams/MP and moving over to ultra build...yep that's why we need Network processing so desperately...it will make everyone's life so much easier.

They certainly look interesting. Don't blow the present up!

I think there might be more to it than just swapping over to Ultra. It's quite difficult to tame, in some instances it produces more detail in others allot of holes and noise. The only way to really test will be once networking is supported as 5-10 hour processing times are just too heavy.

I'm working hard to get the Agisoft guys to try and support silhouette integration into the build stage and re meshing. This hopefully might add some extra help and details/accuracy.
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Magnus

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Re: Samsung NX1000
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2013, 08:50:46 PM »
Hello all!

Great input guys!

Lee, I forgot to add that I am focusing on head and shoulders, portrait so to speak, at first, that is another reason why I went the relatively low MP way. My thought was also that if they do not measure up that I can use them with projected pattern or use in pairs or as pickup-shot coverage.   

I was looking at the Nikon D3200 which is 24,2MP and seems to be at a very decent price, that might be another camera to check out? They also seem to have some wifi-addon. Big drawback is no mirror lock-up!
Here's a review with very handy comparison tool http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d3200/20 You can choose lots of different cameras there and compare at different settings.

About light, when I was researching that I found this thread that has some very good info about continuous vs flash http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3129141 and as you can see there flash should be the primary thing one should look into.
I have to admit to having a soft spot for continuous light since video/film is a dear interest of mine, hehe. My test with light is more to see if and what I can get away with regarding ISO, shutter and F stop. With that one LED light pretty close (maybe 1m or so) to the subject (me) I've managed to get pretty good shots with f14, 1/25 and 400 ISO, that is just with cameras in front in quarter-circle configuration, reconstruction at Ultra High.

Also, that is some very interesting info about hard limit and plateau, thanks!

Best, Magnus.

Infinite

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Re: Samsung NX1000
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2013, 09:03:00 PM »
I got this info from Chris Breeze recently:

"Nikon don't release SDKs for the base models and so it isn't possible to control a D3000, D3100 or D3200 from a PC."

Also it appears on SmartShooter that camera isn't listed.

It would be an ideal camera to use. 24MP, very cheap not full frame which is good. Using full frame is a massive pain I find.. limited lens range with Nikon for FX.

I would be interested to see what sort of results you get with continuous light.

Personally I can't use MLU with my rig because I have a mix of 550D and 600D. They don't sync correctly across those different models.
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andy_s

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Re: Samsung NX1000
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2013, 01:42:25 AM »
@mala
@Magnus/fabberlounge

Hi mala i'd love to hear feedback if you purchase.

Caution - the play store reviews for Samsung "MobileLink" and Samsung "Remote" Viewfinder are both very mixed [at best].

Apparently the new 2013 Cameras [eg NX300 with "3d" lens] work with a consolidated app consisting of the two above and a 3rd called Autoshare [which I have yet to find as a standalone app on play store ?].

The consolidated app is called "Samsung SMART CAMERA". I've no idea if extra functionality [above the 3 apps mentioned] has also been built into it. My memory is the new app will not work with 2012 cameras - such as the NX1000. [Note - the play store refers to the new app as a "Test version"].

The "androidcentral" video [second post in this subject] that I gave the link to [at CES] was a review of the new consolidated 2013 app and did refer to multi-camera support. I have yet to find a detailed description of the multi-cam functionality. Further, I don't know if the multi-cam functionality is any part of the 2012 apps.

In my experience with Samsung TV's [and with perserverance] you can sometimes get some sensible customer support answers online after you register your item e.g in UK get an account here -https://account.samsung.com/account/check.do

I'll be very [pleasantly] surprised if WiFi turns out to be of help ! 

Hi, Magnus / fabberlounge - the following is currently ill defined:-
I want very high quality colour / various material type models if possible and [where required] as large as physically / economically possible. I can imagine large demand for the quality of [colour] models that Lee had 3d printed. For me, Omote / 3du are not "where it's at". I'd like to also consider AR products 3d/4d at some stage - wedding dance replayed in 25 years hence...

What I get and what I want ? the only way i might currently give someone a "thick-ear" is by "slapping" them on it. So post-processing is going to be a problem for a while. That, combined with the fact that my artistic skills are [at best] unproven :-(

Like you Magnus, with budget constraints [read: a mixed photoscan / Kinect solution] I keep in touch with reme who now have "Automate extrinsic calibration of multiple sensors / Point-and-shoot 3D object reconstruction" and somebody working full time on colour:-
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/reconstructme/tLm3gS-cTjo[1-25-false.

Also, Nick Koziupa at 3d3 has uploaded a multi-capture writeup based on a few chats we've had:-
http://manual.kscan3d.com/1.0/index.php/Using_Multiple_Sensors

I guess multi-simultaneous sensor capture is still not a big enough part of their business to concentrate on anti ir interference algorithms.

The world could [will ?] change very quickly - is it the right time to enter the market ?

I now need to get started on the 4th [or was it the 5th] paragraph of the Agisoft wiki so I can begin to "parlez" with you all on a semi-sensible basis. My first intro to all this "stuff" was mid December when I took 20 smartphone pics of my wife [who wants rhino... something or other i.e a "nose job"] and sent them off to 123d catch. I hope "elephant-man" describes the result succinctly. Damn nearly ruined Christmas for me :-)

andy_s

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Re: Samsung NX1000
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2013, 05:54:49 PM »
@mala

might be wise to pass this time at the moment: http://connect.dpreview.com/forums/post/50669332