Agisoft Metashape

Agisoft Metashape => Face and Body Scanning => Topic started by: Andrew on July 24, 2013, 01:39:01 PM

Title: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Andrew on July 24, 2013, 01:39:01 PM

Nikon D3200 seems to be the camera of choice these days, replacing Canon 600D, with main rationale behind it being price advantage over 600D, but also, to quote Lee on FB, "These things are as quick as gunslingers! Very fast and perfect sync compared to 600D's".

Now, I understand the price factor all too well, but speed? Can anyone (Lee? :)) explain what that means specifically with respect to 3D scanning?

With devices like Shutter Cell/Camera Axe/Multi Flash Plus, one can precisely synchronize cameras with flash units, no matter how big the shutter lag is (btw. D3200s shutter lag is larger than D600s), as long as shutter lag is consistent. To me both D3200 and 600D seem to have consistent shutter lags but I didn't have time/means to do very precise tests yet - I can only confirm they are both light years ahead of old Canon 550D.

So:

1) Is D3200's shutter lag much more consistent than 600Ds?

2) Are there any other important speed/synch factors I am missing?

3) Isn't D3200 a tad soft for precise 3D reconstruction? Does sharpening photos help?


Oh, just to be clear, this is all for internal indie studio use, I am not about to offer scanning services and poach anyone's business :) Also, I only do occasional scans so convenience (battery bay doors blocked by camera mount etc.) are of secondary importance, although it would be nice to hear all known pros and cons.

Thanks in advance!
Andrew
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: andy_s on July 24, 2013, 10:31:56 PM
Hi Andrew,

unfortunately no answers - just exactly the same questions.

Read this somewhere:

...The results from the D800e are about as good as one can expect from the process, or so I thought until a brand-new Canon SL1 fell into the mix. The results from this 18MP dwarf SLR with kit lens are nothing short of amazing. Small size, hair, eyes, clean data, and an easy to control standard remote control port, we’ve found our camera, I believe, for the new portable human body scanning unit...

Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Infinite on July 25, 2013, 02:13:20 PM
I can confirm from my own tests, the D3200's are not as useful as I had hoped. Testing with 8 cameras looked good but then scaling to 24x I saw inconsistencies with syncing at fast speeds.

The problem I have found overall with Nikon image output is, they are damn soft. No matter the settings or lighting. With this type of photogrammetry you are stuck with camera exposure settings and lighting style and this can really show off the differences between camera types. I've only tested with Canon 550D and 600D but they are far superior in image quality compared to the Nikon D3200's D7100's and D800's, even the D800E (this nonsense about moire filter removal and sharper images is utter crud, marketing ploy) the same with the D7100. The same softness appears.

At this stage I would recommend 600D but the best thing always is... find out on your own and not trust some nut on the internets :)

Also:

The D3200 trigger leads are tricky to find, power easy but the supplied data leads are useless at about 24cm long. Trying to source longer USB leads is hard as they have a special connector to interface with the body, not a simple USB2 mini jack like Canon. Any leads over 5m and you will have drop outs so, 2m-3m is recommended, same with Canon's.

It's about damn time camera manufactures utilized USB3 to cover this distance limitation. D800's being the only I know of so far.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on July 25, 2013, 02:41:03 PM
Sad but true... I've learned this the hard way as well.  I was also pretty pleased at first with the Nikon D3200 until that is I started to realize just how poor the image quality is when compared to the Canon's.  I agree, don't be taken in by high mega-pixel numbers and marking spin.  The focus on the Nikon D3200 is shockingly soft... which is very disappointing indeed.

Cheers,

J
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Infinite on July 25, 2013, 02:47:44 PM
Sad but true... I've learned this the hard way as well.  I was also pretty pleased at first with the Nikon D3200 until that is I started to realize just how poor the image quality is when compared to the Canon's.  I agree, don't be taken in by high mega-pixel numbers and marking spin.  The focus on the Nikon D3200 is shockingly soft... which is very disappointing indeed.

Cheers,

J

How many do you have to sell on Joe? Sorry if my previous hype egged your choice on but as you know, personal research and testing is the only way to find out for sure. Same with projectors  ???

The problem with multi cameras as well is, you can test with 4 or 8, that's hard enough and teasing with results but you only really find out what happens when you go higher, like 40 or 80+. Unknown territory.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on July 25, 2013, 03:01:34 PM
Hi Lee,

Luckily, I only have 8 D3200's.... so things could have been far worse  :-[

Cheers,

J
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Infinite on July 25, 2013, 03:14:03 PM
Hi Lee,

Luckily, I only have 8 D3200's.... so things could have been far worse  :-[

Cheers,

J

If it's any consolation I have 28x D3200's and 8x D800's!

Multi-Camera Photogrammetry is a big boys game and you have to gamble.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on July 25, 2013, 03:20:53 PM
I totally understand!

The business of high-end scanning takes titanium bollocks... but nothing ventured, nothing gained  :)

One thing is for sure, I'll be returning to Canon for the next lot that I purchase... that is unless something major changes between now and then.

Cheers,

J
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: andy_s on July 25, 2013, 03:23:39 PM
Appreciate the info Joe / Lee.

Anything you can share about the [to me] remaining mystery:

"These things are as quick as gunslingers! Very fast and perfect sync compared to 600D's"  ;)
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Wishgranter on July 25, 2013, 03:27:17 PM
My worlds about consultancy with Lee have been right  ;)....
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Infinite on July 25, 2013, 03:35:44 PM
I totally understand!

The business of high-end scanning takes titanium bollocks... but nothing ventured, nothing gained  :)

One thing is for sure, I'll be returning to Canon for the next lot that I purchase... that is unless something major changes between now and then.

Or a straight jacket and padded cell :)

It pains me to say it but Canon are better with regards to image output, shoddy design though.

Appreciate the info Joe / Lee.

Anything you can share about the [to me] remaining mystery:

"These things are as quick as gunslingers! Very fast and perfect sync compared to 600D's"  ;)

There's no mystery. These cameras are very fast! you can sync better than the 600D's but over a certain amount of cameras, so far 24x tested, syncing becomes harder. Meaning some black images. By syncing I mean syncing flashlight up to 1/250th speed. You can' t do this even with 600D's at such speeds. Anything above 1/20th becomes hard and you get black images. Fast syncing is useful for multi-lighting.

D800's have so far been the best but even then I would bet at 24x the same thing would happen. Slow sync is much easier at 1/4 in general. But this is slow.

My worlds about consultancy with Lee have been right  ;)....

There's so many little things to get right when building a system. So many quirks to control!
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on July 25, 2013, 03:41:22 PM
There's so many little things to get right when building a system. So many quirks to control!

This is the TRUTH!

Cheers,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: andy_s on July 25, 2013, 04:52:16 PM
Appreciate all the comments.

Andrew, my understanding of this:

"...so far 24x tested, syncing becomes harder. Meaning some black images. By syncing I mean syncing flashlight up to 1/250th speed. You can' t do this even with 600D's at such speeds."

Is that the variability of shutter lag [across 24 cams] is always greater than 4 millisecs i.e HIGH speed is being referred to as a low variability of shutter lag.

So, if you're not using multi-light then just use a long-exposure [from dark] together with a pack of 550D's ?
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Magnus on July 25, 2013, 05:06:17 PM
Hello All!

Thanks so much to you all for sharing this information!

Lee, the trouble over 1/20th sync with 600D is that also with mirror lock-up?

Could it also be related to pre-focus?

Also I assume you guys mean the jpg quality of the D3200? The raw out of it is from my (limited) testing very good (which I actually don't use, hehe).

Best, Magnus.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on July 25, 2013, 05:09:08 PM


Also I assume you guys mean the jpg quality of the D3200? The raw out of it is from my (limited) testing very good (which I actually don't use, hehe).

Nope, in my case I am referring to the RAW quality which is vastly inferior to that of my Canon's.  Honestly, the image quality of D3200 is shockingly poor in comparison.

RAW or JPEG the focus is still very, very soft.

Cheers,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Infinite on July 25, 2013, 05:23:42 PM
Appreciate all the comments.

Andrew, my understanding of this:

"...so far 24x tested, syncing becomes harder. Meaning some black images. By syncing I mean syncing flashlight up to 1/250th speed. You can' t do this even with 600D's at such speeds."

Is that the variability of shutter lag [across 24 cams] is always greater than 4 millisecs i.e speed is being referred to as a low variability of shutter lag.

So, if you're not using multi-light then just use a long-exposure [from dark] together with a pack of 550D's ?

Who's Andrew?  :o

I should reiterate. For 1 capture, you can do it at up to 1/250th speed. Unlike the Canon 600D's. But it's pointless anyway if you can't do it multiple times. The image output is poor as well.

550D's have allot of variation in shutter speeds. The 600D's are better, more consistent. For example you can't mix 550D's and 600D's with MLU. They fire at different speeds in groups even with MLU.

Hello All!

Thanks so much to you all for sharing this information!

Lee, the trouble over 1/20th sync with 600D is that also with mirror lock-up?

Could it also be related to pre-focus?

Also I assume you guys mean the jpg quality of the D3200? The raw out of it is from my (limited) testing very good (which I actually don't use, hehe).

Best, Magnus.

As long as you don't mix camera makes. MLU will work if you do 1 shot captures. Not multi.

No pre-focus. You can't do that on a large capture volume of a head or body. As each pose will be different from the next and invariably you will get a bunch of cameras out of focus. So some can be slow to focus as well and you should be shooting in dark conditions anyway, bad for focusing!

Nikon output is still bad with D800's and D3200's even on RAW. Plus they have this really weird orange / yellow tinge to their WB colour. Which I believe on some versions is a firmware bug that needs updating.



Also I assume you guys mean the jpg quality of the D3200? The raw out of it is from my (limited) testing very good (which I actually don't use, hehe).

Nope, in my case I am referring to the RAW quality which is vastly inferior to that of my Canon's.  Honestly, the image quality of D3200 is shockingly poor in comparison.

RAW or JPEG the focus is still very, very soft.

Cheers,

Joe

Nail. On. The. HEAD!!  ;D
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: andy_s on July 25, 2013, 05:29:53 PM
Andrew ? our colleague who started this thread  ;)

Some interesting comment from camera-axe thread

http://www.dreamingrobots.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1902 (http://www.dreamingrobots.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1902)

Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:22 pm
Re: Which (less obvious) camera settings affect camera lag?
Postby niteclicks » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:04 pm

How fast the camera can drive the mirror also effects the lag, so you might try mirror lockup.

Maurice
Posts: 1197
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:04 am
Re: Which (less obvious) camera settings affect camera lag?
Postby Maurice » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:20 pm

Niteclicks, one would think you're right, but the fact is on some cameras we've observed that mirror lockup increases lag, and I have yet to see a camera where it reduces shutter lag. How mirror lockup impacts shutter lag is controlled by firmware and it seems camera manufactures aren't optimizing for low shutter lags.

If anyone finds a camera where mirror lockup reduces shutter lag I'd love to hear about it.
 
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Infinite on July 25, 2013, 05:36:32 PM
Andrew ? our colleague who started this thread  ;)

Some interesting comment from camera-axe thread

Doh! not paying attention here :)
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Magnus on July 25, 2013, 05:39:04 PM
Hello!

Have you tried tweaking the Picture Control on the D3200?

Ah I meant just sending the pre-focus commands to have the cameras react faster, not having auto-focus (this I think is what Andrew talked about in a previous thread).

Best, Magnus.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on July 25, 2013, 05:42:28 PM
Hello!

Have you tried tweaking the Picture Control on the D3200?

No, I've not touched them.  Do you have any specific suggestions?

Cheers,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Infinite on July 25, 2013, 05:48:50 PM
Hi Andrew,

unfortunately no answers - just exactly the same questions.

Read this somewhere:

...The results from the D800e are about as good as one can expect from the process, or so I thought until a brand-new Canon SL1 fell into the mix. The results from this 18MP dwarf SLR with kit lens are nothing short of amazing. Small size, hair, eyes, clean data, and an easy to control standard remote control port, we’ve found our camera, I believe, for the new portable human body scanning unit...


Out of interest. Where was this somewhere?
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Magnus on July 25, 2013, 06:06:14 PM
Hello!

Joe, I've read that increasing sharpening in those settings can make it better (2-4), might be worth a try?
I saw this too http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Nikon_D3200/RAW_vs_JPEG.shtml (http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Nikon_D3200/RAW_vs_JPEG.shtml)

I think it might have been that I had some sharpness settings on when I looked at the raws because I saw a big difference between them and the jpgs.

Best, Magnus.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on July 25, 2013, 06:09:27 PM
Hello!

Joe, I've read that increasing sharpening in those settings can make it better (2-4), might be worth a try?
I saw this too http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Nikon_D3200/RAW_vs_JPEG.shtml (http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Nikon_D3200/RAW_vs_JPEG.shtml)

I think it might have been that I had some sharpness settings on when I looked at the raws because I saw a big difference between them and the jpgs.

Best, Magnus.

Hi Magnus,

Interesting.  I think I'll give the sharpening settings a bit of a boost... it's worth a try!

Thanks for the tip, I appreciate it.

Kind Regards,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: andy_s on July 25, 2013, 06:13:21 PM
Quote
Out of interest. Where was this somewhere?

Lee, end of your FB entry 'panocamera' 19 June  :o ;) ;D
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Infinite on July 25, 2013, 06:28:23 PM
Ah yes. You mean from here http://panocamera.com/blog/?p=863 interesting blog post.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Infinite on July 25, 2013, 06:36:10 PM
Hello!

Joe, I've read that increasing sharpening in those settings can make it better (2-4), might be worth a try?
I saw this too http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Nikon_D3200/RAW_vs_JPEG.shtml (http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Nikon_D3200/RAW_vs_JPEG.shtml)

I think it might have been that I had some sharpness settings on when I looked at the raws because I saw a big difference between them and the jpgs.

Best, Magnus.

Hi Magnus,

Interesting.  I think I'll give the sharpening settings a bit of a boost... it's worth a try!

Thanks for the tip, I appreciate it.

Kind Regards,

Joe

I've tried post processing the images after capture, all it does is worsen the build  >:(
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on July 25, 2013, 06:42:51 PM
Hello!

Joe, I've read that increasing sharpening in those settings can make it better (2-4), might be worth a try?
I saw this too http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Nikon_D3200/RAW_vs_JPEG.shtml (http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Nikon_D3200/RAW_vs_JPEG.shtml)

I think it might have been that I had some sharpness settings on when I looked at the raws because I saw a big difference between them and the jpgs.

Best, Magnus.

Hi Magnus,

Interesting.  I think I'll give the sharpening settings a bit of a boost... it's worth a try!

Thanks for the tip, I appreciate it.

Kind Regards,

Joe

I've tried post processing the images after capture, all it does is worsen the build  >:(

That what I would expect as well.  Still, might be worth a try with the camera's built-in sharpening settings.  It's worth a go.

Cheers,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Infinite on July 25, 2013, 06:57:04 PM

That what I would expect as well.  Still, might be worth a try with the camera's built-in sharpening settings.  It's worth a go.

Cheers,

Joe

Interested to see if that works.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Andrew on July 25, 2013, 09:14:00 PM
Lots of valuable insight gentlemen, thank you!

One thing that surprised me a lot Lee was that you put 600Ds above D7100 and D800/D800E in terms of resolved detail, wow!

D3200s are insanely soft, true, but my D7100 looks razor sharp (right up there with 600d) and although I haven't had the pleasure to work with D800/D800E, the resolution charts from these babies look insane!. Perhaps at higher f-stop light diffraction inside the lens (and we rarely use high end glass on our multi-cam setups, do we) decreases resolved resolution to levels where the 36mpix sensor doesn't matter anymore.

One additional thing to note is that I have witnessed numerous and serious build quality issues on higher end Nikons. My D7100 saves photos to cards erratically (every now and then the file is corrupt), that frigging custom usb port has gotten loose after less than 10 times I plugged the cable, and yeah, cable length is a joke. From what I hear, there are lots of units with faulty focus (tendency to left-focus and such), and don't get me started on oil spills soiling the sensor...

Long live 600d! ;)

Cheers,
Andrew
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Infinite on July 25, 2013, 09:23:13 PM
I tested a D7100 and there was very little different between it and the D3200. I'm not sure where the razor sharp comes from? same with the D800 and D800E. It could be because of being stuck with higher f-stop limitations to capture a large bounding volume. As well as needing soft bounced global lighting.

There is also more increased DOF with full frame which is another pain to deal with. As you need sharpness in a large area not just a small capture window, with a limitation of lenses to match a DX setup.

Without seeing other peoples examples it's hard to gauge, other than hear say.

and don't get me started on oil spills soiling the sensor...


For sure! I've had this creep in with 2x of my D800's black spots that are very hard to remove without a wet clean.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Andrew on July 25, 2013, 10:00:59 PM
Going away on a three-day weekend now, but after I return I can share sample photos from multicam setup (600D, D3200 and D7100), if you'd like to compare against your results. I honestly think that D7100 is as sharp as 600D (even has a tiny edge due to more pixels), definitely in a different league than D3200, so perhaps your unit had faulty focus or my kit 18-105lens was sharper, who knows.

-Andrew

I tested a D7100 and there was very little different between it and the D3200. I'm not sure where the razor sharp comes from?



Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on July 25, 2013, 10:02:08 PM
Ok, on the D3200 I've tried increasing the built-in camera sharpening. At first glance it seems to help, that is until you actually zoom into the image and see that it is producing some horrible grainy noise patterns as well.  More testing is required but i'm not feeling hopeful based on what I'm seeing at the moment.  I don't have a lot of time for further testing today, but will continue as soon as I get a chance.

Cheers,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Wishgranter on July 25, 2013, 11:26:46 PM
What software you use for the sharpening stuff  guys ?? Have you tried DXO Optics and play with the LENS SOFTNESS ? DXO calibrate "every" lens with a lot of cameras, so they have one of the best results, but it need few tests to set it properly for that lens+camera..... if can share privately RAW outputs can help with it ( at least few images for later processing with pscan ) .

Another thing is the firmware and as i hear from my friend professional photograph not every batch of cameras is properly calibrated on focusing, he has readjusted the camera and it bring little better results, but i have it not here to show results, but he know what he say....

And another interesting article about the sharpness/blurriness of images is here http://www.maxmax.com/nikon_d700hr.htm and http://www.maxmax.com/olpf_study.htm and read few more things there.....
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on July 26, 2013, 04:12:51 AM
I came across these test results for the D3200 - Kinda interesting, this might be of some interest to others here.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d3200/nikon-d3200A5.HTM

Cheers,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: mala on July 26, 2013, 10:35:24 AM
Thanks for the OLPF Study link Wishgranter... a very interesting read and quite relevant to some recent work I've been doing.

Cheers,
Mala
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Infinite on July 26, 2013, 01:25:16 PM
Going away on a three-day weekend now, but after I return I can share sample photos from multicam setup (600D, D3200 and D7100), if you'd like to compare against your results. I honestly think that D7100 is as sharp as 600D (even has a tiny edge due to more pixels), definitely in a different league than D3200, so perhaps your unit had faulty focus or my kit 18-105lens was sharper, who knows.

-Andrew


That would be very interesting to see.

Thanks for the links Wishgranter and Meshmaster.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on July 26, 2013, 02:23:17 PM
What software you use for the sharpening stuff  guys ?? Have you tried DXO Optics and play with the LENS SOFTNESS ? DXO calibrate "every" lens with a lot of cameras, so they have one of the best results, but it need few tests to set it properly for that lens+camera..... if can share privately RAW outputs can help with it ( at least few images for later processing with pscan ) .

I have been using Lightroom.  I just tried DXO Optics and it seems to do a much better job...much better, quite impressive.

Very interesting... thanks for the great tip Wishgranter!

BTW - Visually, the D3200 really seems to benefit hugely from sharpening.  That said, I've still yet to test the results with an actual PS build, so the actual benefit is still unclear.

Cheers,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Wishgranter on July 26, 2013, 02:33:44 PM
MeshMaster, send me sample image to muzeumhb@gmail.com one RAW image, will set my OWN stuff and then will send SETTINGS file + explanation with it back :-) ......
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on July 26, 2013, 02:39:47 PM
MeshMaster, send me sample image to muzeumhb@gmail.com one RAW image, will set my OWN stuff and then will send SETTINGS file + explanation with it back :-) ......

Hi Wishgranter,

Of course, I'd be happy to do that.  It is still early here and I'm not at the office yet.  As soon as I get a chance (later this morning) I will send you the data.  Thank you very much for your assistance with this, I really appreciate it!!!!

Cheers,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Andrew on July 30, 2013, 04:59:50 PM
I promised to share sample photos from my test multi-cam capture for IQ comparison between Canon 600D, Nikon D3200 and Nikon D7100, but I can't get my hands on the files right now (damn you, holiday season!), so I just took a few snaps of my coleague here.

All three cams were set to full manual mode, f11, hand held at 1/160s and no image-altering shenanigans, with kit zoom lenses at around 50mm. Used camera's built in flash units, asked the guy not to move around too much :) He doesn't like internet fame so I cropped the images. All in all, not very scientific test but still should give an idea of how these cams compare.


Nikon D3200 with AF-S Nikkor 18-55mm: https://www.dropbox.com/s/raz9e48o7rjkw0v/D3200.JPG (https://www.dropbox.com/s/raz9e48o7rjkw0v/D3200.JPG)

Canon 600d with EF-S 18-55mm: https://www.dropbox.com/s/mjlyc4ejj38lvw5/600D.JPG (https://www.dropbox.com/s/mjlyc4ejj38lvw5/600D.JPG)

Nikon D7100 with AF-S Nikkor 18-105mm: https://www.dropbox.com/s/g7zr8tlh4slwimg/D7100.JPG (https://www.dropbox.com/s/g7zr8tlh4slwimg/D7100.JPG)
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on July 30, 2013, 05:03:54 PM
More than ever I am convinced that the D3200 is a camera with some real focus problems.

Cheers,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: chadfx on July 30, 2013, 08:21:11 PM
I've been reading this thread of judging DSLR image quality of various models. Are any of you testing these cameras with lenses that are sharper than these kit lenses? The kit lenses are almost never known for being super sharp, even when stopped down to a smaller aperture like f11.

Some people say they're garbage and not worth having at all, which I would disagree with, as they can provide decent enough IQ for many uses. But it seems that you are hoping to squeeze every pixel out of them, and they are usually not as good as a decent prime lens (or high end zoom). There are some 3rd party lenses that are generally regarded as very sharp (Sigma comes to mind), and also available in a number of different lens mounts. So you could stick a Sigma 30mm on any Canon or Nikon APS-C body (or Sony, etc) and then you would really be comparing apples to apples.

But if you guys are trying to compare camera bodies that generally evaluate very well in standardized photo tests (DPReview, etc) with these kit lenses, I think you will find the lenses are a bigger source of the softness issues than the camera bodies.

Just throwing it out there...not trying to ruffle feathers. =)
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on July 30, 2013, 08:33:29 PM
I've been reading this thread of judging DSLR image quality of various models. Are any of you testing these cameras with lenses that are sharper than these kit lenses? The kit lenses are almost never known for being super sharp, even when stopped down to a smaller aperture like f11.

Some people say they're garbage and not worth having at all, which I would disagree with, as they can provide decent enough IQ for many uses. But it seems that you are hoping to squeeze every pixel out of them, and they are usually not as good as a decent prime lens (or high end zoom). There are some 3rd party lenses that are generally regarded as very sharp (Sigma comes to mind), and also available in a number of different lens mounts. So you could stick a Sigma 30mm on any Canon or Nikon APS-C body (or Sony, etc) and then you would really be comparing apples to apples.

But if you guys are trying to compare camera bodies that generally evaluate very well in standardized photo tests (DPReview, etc) with these kit lenses, I think you will find the lenses are a bigger source of the softness issues than the camera bodies.

Just throwing it out there...not trying to ruffle feathers. =)

No problem!

I've only tested the D3200 with the 18-55 kit lens and the results are rubbish.

Compared to my Canon T2i's or T3i's even using kit lenses the results from the Nikon are of substandard quality.

The truth is that I have not yet tested the D3200's with "good" glass... yet, but I am in the process of doing so.  I've got a few new prime lenses on order and once I've tested I will report my results here.
It is quite possible, that the results that I am seeing are simply down to inferior lenses and I hope that is the case!

Still, so far based on what I've seen based on my own direct testing, the images produced by my Canon's are clearly better... no pun intended  ;)

Cheers,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: chadfx on July 30, 2013, 08:51:33 PM

Hey Joe, glad to year you have some primes coming. I think (hope) you will find the results much better. Many modern Nikon bodies are well regarded for IQ (at least they shouldn't be 'rubbish' compared to Canon) (ps. I am a Canon owner, so no bias here!) Better lenses can even produce better color and contrast output than lesser counterparts. (notice that I did not say cheaper...more $$$ does not necessarily mean better in a number of cases)

Oh, and I'm also assuming you are testing with RAW images, yes? JPEG output from cameras can also be highly variable, and usually is not quite as sharp as a converted RAW image. Some cameras are fairly notorious for softening out sharper details in their JPEG versions  (usually to suppress noise artifacts) .

Overall image quality is a very slippery slope, and it's easy to get super obsessed about it, and/or only focus (another pun!) on one part of the image pipeline without considering all of the factors.

Cheers, -C
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on July 30, 2013, 09:00:32 PM

Hey Joe, glad to year you have some primes coming. I think (hope) you will find the results much better. Many modern Nikon bodies are well regarded for IQ (at least they shouldn't be 'rubbish' compared to Canon) (ps. I am a Canon owner, so no bias here!) Better lenses can even produce better color and contrast output than lesser counterparts. (notice that I did not say cheaper...more $$$ does not necessarily mean better in a number of cases)

Oh, and I'm also assuming you are testing with RAW images, yes? JPEG output from cameras can also be highly variable, and usually is not quite as sharp as a converted RAW image. Some cameras are fairly notorious for softening out sharper details in their JPEG versions  (usually to suppress noise artifacts) .

Overall image quality is a very slippery slope, and it's easy to get super obsessed about it, and/or only focus (another pun!) on one part of the image pipeline without considering all of the factors.

Cheers, -C

We are on the same page and I totally agree in the importance of quality lenses!

Honestly, I was shocked by the poor images quality that I've been experiencing with the D3200 so much so that I would have considered the camera to have been defective had I not also had 7 more of them to test against... all of them exhibited very poor focus.

Yes, all my testing has been done with RAW images, camera on tripod with studio lighting, ISO 100, 1/125 sec, F10 - F11

Re: The kit lens I've tested it at 18mm, 55mm & 35mm.

I also have no bias against Nikon whatsoever... I'm just going purely on what I see from my tests.

No one hopes more than I that some good prime lenses will solve this issue and I will certainly share my findings one way or the other.

I'll keep you posted!

Cheers,

Joe

Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on July 30, 2013, 09:19:11 PM
Just so that people don't think I'm having a moan about the quality of the D3200 for no reason, let me show you an example image.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38398338/D3200/DSC_0001_DxO_18mm.jpg

This image was shot at F11, 125 sec, ISO 100, with the 18-55mm kit lens, the subject is 1 meter from the lens.

Ok, so this was shot at the 18mm extreme of the lens, so I would expect reduced quality... but this is really... well, poor.  Notice how soft the focus is at the center of the image... YIKES!

I consider this to be unacceptable.

Hopefully, a good prime lens will make an improvement!

Cheers,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: aphextwin on July 30, 2013, 10:05:58 PM
100% agree.. image-quality is very poor!

did you try the canon eos1100D with 35mm fixed lens?
This combo comes quite cheap and it can be synched with magic lantern, I guess.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on July 30, 2013, 10:16:17 PM
100% agree.. image-quality is very poor!

did you try the canon eos1100D with 35mm fixed lens?
This combo comes quite cheap and it can be synched with magic lantern, I guess.

I agree!

I've not tried the eos1100D but I have tested and made comparison with/against the EOS T2i, T3i, etc.  I've tested the Canons with kit lens 18-55 and the images are very good and with prime lenses they are pin sharp!

Whereas, with these D3200's I can't even manage to get the center of the image in proper focus... WTF?  :o

Hell, I've got some old Canon 40D's (only 10.1 megapixels) that produce better images with kit lenses  than these Nikon's do!

So, this is why I'm kicking up a fuss.  I'm hoping that some prime lens goodness will solve my problems.... only time will tell!

Cheers,

Joe



Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: chadfx on July 30, 2013, 10:22:03 PM
Wow, you are certainly not getting proper results from that lens and camera!

That lens is not crazy sharp, but it doesn't seem to be horrible either...certainly nowhere near as bad as what you are seeing.

http://www.photozone.de/nikon--nikkor-aps-c-lens-tests/632-nikkor18553556vr?start=1

Have you tried using manual focus and/or live view with contrast detection focusing? That 'should' give you the sharpest focusing results. At least to make sure it isn't the autofocus being weird with this lens or it's horribly front/back focusing.

Do you have more than one copy of the lens? Are they all this bad?
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on July 30, 2013, 10:29:53 PM
Wow, you are certainly not getting proper results from that lens and camera!

That lens is not crazy sharp, but it doesn't seem to be horrible either...certainly nowhere near as bad as what you are seeing.

http://www.photozone.de/nikon--nikkor-aps-c-lens-tests/632-nikkor18553556vr?start=1

Have you tried using manual focus and/or live view with contrast detection focusing? That 'should' give you the sharpest focusing results. At least to make sure it isn't the autofocus being weird with this lens or it's horribly front/back focusing.

Do you have more than one copy of the lens? Are they all this bad?

Hi chadfx,

No, I've not had an opportunity to test with live view with contrast detection focusing, but it's next on my to-do list!

I do quite a collection of these lenses and they are all producing bad results, as are all the cameras.

I agree, this is bad and doesn't seem like it should be normal.

I am continuing to look into this matter and I will post more results as soon as I have them!

I'm open to any and all suggestions!

Cheers,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: chadfx on July 30, 2013, 10:54:20 PM

I never really thought of contrast detection being a defacto standard for getting the most precise focus, but this guy seems to prove the point quite clearly (oh, another pun...sorry!)

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/autofocus-reality-part-1-center-point-single-shot-accuracy

and just adding a bit more review info: (from what I can tell, you are still not getting expected results from this
camera/lens combo. I would never say reviews are ever the final word...but your softness situation seems to go beyond review variations or other customer experiences. you can see that some areas both in front (like her sweater zipper) and in back (strands of hair) seem to be sharper than her face/eyes. it might be worth looking into a warranty/quality control issue if all of these cameras/lenses came from one batch at the factory.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d3200/16

Overall Image Quality

At this point in time the Nikon D3200 offers the highest sensor resolution in the entry-level bracket of the DSLR market. That said, you'll have to use high-quality glass to make the most of the sensor's capabilities. The 18-55mm kit lens, while performing perfectly well compared to its entry-level peers, simply cannot transmit the amount of detail the sensor is capable of capturing. Nikon told us some time ago that a large proportion of the buyers of their entry-level models never take the kit lens off their camera. If this is still true, it means that most D3200 users won’t get the most out of their camera. The Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 17-55mm f/2.8G is Nikon's flagship standard zoom for DX, but it's bulky and heavy, and at more than $1200 not an obvious choice for someone who is in the market for an entry-level DSLR. The Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 16-85mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR is slightly more attainable, but still retails for around $700.

Resolution and detail aside the Nikon D3200 offers good image quality, with reliable focusing and metering. Like we've seen on many previous Nikon models before there is a slight tendency to overexpose in bright contrasty conditions. In those situations it's worth dialing in 0.3 EV or so of negative exposure compensation, but even if you don't, it is usually possible to get at least some blown highlight detail back by applying negative digital exposure compensation in raw conversion (see above).

Image noise is not much of an issue at low ISOs. There are some traces of luminance noise in plain colored areas from ISO 200 upwards, but you'll have to look very closely to spot it. The detail-blurring effects of noise reduction start becoming visible at ISO 800 where some fine low-contrast detail is visibly being blurred. However, you'll have to view the image at 100% to notice. At sensitivities higher than ISO 1600 grainy luminance noise and the loss of low-contrast detail become more intrusive. Chroma noise is well under control up to very high ISOs but gets pretty intrusive at the two highest settings, which should be reserved for smaller output sizes.

Shooting raw files can, with the right conversion parameters, give you a small amount of additional detail. At higher ISOs it gives you the flexibility of applying customized noise reduction and generate better results than the out-of-camera JPEGs, as demonstrated in the sample shot above above.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Wishgranter on July 30, 2013, 11:22:17 PM
Hi All for people interested to understand few things about cams, lenses and good quality of results  recommend to read carefully this two links..... 

1. http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/en/About/In-depth-measurements/Measurements/Sharpness

2. http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/en/Publications/DxOMark-Reviews/Looking-for-new-photo-gear-DxOMark-s-Perceptual-Megapixel-can-help-you

After you understand the stuff behind it, you can SAFELY choose proper lens for your cameras  8)

The Perceptual MPix measure confirms certain rules of thumb such as “a 12 MPix full-format camera is sharper than an 18 MPix APS,

Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on July 30, 2013, 11:41:58 PM

Have you tried using manual focus and/or live view with contrast detection focusing? That 'should' give you the sharpest focusing results. At least to make sure it isn't the autofocus being weird with this lens or it's horribly front/back focusing.



Here is the result of focusing using live view... not a great deal of change:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38398338/D3200/DSC_0001_DxO_18mm_b.jpg

Cheers,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: aphextwin on July 31, 2013, 12:04:48 AM
Hi All for people interested to understand few things about cams, lenses and good quality of results  recommend to read carefully this two links..... 

1. http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/en/About/In-depth-measurements/Measurements/Sharpness

2. http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/en/Publications/DxOMark-Reviews/Looking-for-new-photo-gear-DxOMark-s-Perceptual-Megapixel-can-help-you

After you understand the stuff behind it, you can SAFELY choose proper lens for your cameras  8)

The Perceptual MPix measure confirms certain rules of thumb such as “a 12 MPix full-format camera is sharper than an 18 MPix APS,

and the prize is 'sharper', too ;) if you need i.e. 18 cameras for a multi camera rig this is a quite important point. btw aps sensors have less requirements for lenses as they don't use a smaller part of the lens. imho the eos 1100D with a 35mm fixed zoom lens does a good job concerning sharpness, vignetting etc and the costs. honestly, for SfM I wouldn't use zoom lenses at all. But small sensors are not a bad idea in every way as they deliver 'better' depth of field at smaller apertures so you can take a shorter shuttertime, so a good (!) compact camera (like ricoh with fixed zoom lens) can get into consideration too.
what I want to point out is that this topic is not binary (good camera/bad camera) ;)

Concerning the overall signal/noise ratio, full frame is clearly the best, but I guess this point is clear...
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: chadfx on July 31, 2013, 12:29:41 AM
Quote
what I want to point out is that this topic is not binary (good camera/bad camera) ;)

excellent point, Aphex...there are many options and variables out there.

have many people tried using micro4/3 cameras? their smaller sensor delivers even better depth of field coverage and the latest sensors are pretty decent, and they have some nice sharp prime lenses available

remote control options are fairly slim I believe, though...
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Andrew on July 31, 2013, 02:12:22 PM
A while ago, when I studied resolution charts at dxomark website, high f-stop seemed to be lens equalizer - pro lens would peform infinitely better at f4-8, but light diffraction at f11 and up seemed to degrade image quality to comparable levels with cheap lens.

Can anyone share their experience, or better yet, share comparison pics of cheap and good glass at higher fstop?
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on July 31, 2013, 03:36:30 PM
Hello,

Ok, so you've got to see this:

Right, so here was the image from the D3200:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38398338/D3200/DSC_0001_DxO_18mm_b.jpg


Now see this.... here is an image from my Canon T2i https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38398338/D3200/IMG_3728.jpg

Ok, this image was shot with the Canon 18-55mm Kit Lens, 1/125 sec, F11.... in other words, the SAME settings that were used with the Nikon D3200.

Both were shot at exactly 1 meter from the subject.

Both were taken using inexpensive kit lenses, yet look, the image from the Canon is acceptable and what I would expect, whereas the image from the Nikon D3200 is of absolutely hideous quality.

So, I really have a difficult time accepting that this issue is just simply one of poor glass.

I've got 8 Nikon D3200's, I've tested each of them, none seem capable of producing a sharp, in-focus image.

Something is very, very, wrong.

Cheers,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Infinite on July 31, 2013, 04:34:55 PM
Hello,

Ok, so you've got to see this:

Right, so here was the image from the D3200:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38398338/D3200/DSC_0001_DxO_18mm_b.jpg


Now see this.... here is an image from my Canon T2i https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38398338/D3200/IMG_3728.jpg

Ok, this image was shot with the Canon 18-55mm Kit Lens, 1/125 sec, F11.... in other words, the SAME settings that were used with the Nikon D3200.

Both were shot at exactly 1 meter from the subject.

Both were taken using inexpensive kit lenses, yet look, the image from the Canon is acceptable and what I would expect, whereas the image from the Nikon D3200 is of absolutely hideous quality.

So, I really have a difficult time accepting that this issue is just simply one of poor glass.

I've got 8 Nikon D3200's, I've tested each of them, none seem capable of producing a sharp, in-focus image.

Something is very, very, wrong.

Cheers,

Joe

Quite incredible. I haven't posted much here because I'm seeing exactly the same thing I saw a few months ago with my D800's and D3200's. Using Kit as well as Prime lenses. These aren't individual defects but across a range of 8-24x cameras. Something most 'professionals' don't have the chance to test or compare against. Who in their right might have multiple D800's or MKII's!!

I get the same issues with the D800's combined with oil spots on the sensor.

I have a sneaking suspicion (I hate to rate one make over another) but if I switch to Canon MKII or MKIII's the results will be as good as the 600D's, ultra sharp with no damn processing we shouldn't have to post-process, as it has zero effect in Agisoft anyway. I can confirm there is zero difference shooting RAW or Jpeg when processing in Agisoft. ZERO! apart from an exponential increase in processing times. RAW is useful for extra bit depth in texture output only. Not build.

There is just something about Canon's image output that is better than Nikon's. Regardless of all the "industry standard tests" out there. In a proper multi-cam studio environment with applicable bounced flash lighting, the defects in the Nikon cameras are apparent. I have already done all the necessary tests here, lens swaps, body types including D7100 as well.

My conclusion was Canon just produce better results. Sadly I can't test with MKII or III yet but I hope to. The Canon 600D's even though not full frame or higher MP produce sharp images. Without RAW or post-processing.

Thanks for your experiments Joe, it has confirmed my research further. Expensive research (as you know!) I might add  :-[

Lee

PS. The annoying thing is the Nikon's build and design quality far exceed Canon's. A good example is the power / battery hatch location!!!!!!
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Infinite on July 31, 2013, 04:43:18 PM
A while ago, when I studied resolution charts at dxomark website, high f-stop seemed to be lens equalizer - pro lens would peform infinitely better at f4-8, but light diffraction at f11 and up seemed to degrade image quality to comparable levels with cheap lens.

Can anyone share their experience, or better yet, share comparison pics of cheap and good glass at higher fstop?

I think this is true for full frame and higher MP. But anything below f8 is useless for full body or face scanning as the focus range is so small. Anything blurred will create highly noisy scan output  :-[
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on July 31, 2013, 04:43:57 PM
Hi Lee,

Thanks for your input.

It gives me some comfort to know that I am not the only one who is seeing this... I was starting to feel as if I was going completely bonkers!

Cheers M8,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Infinite on July 31, 2013, 04:45:01 PM
Hi Lee,

Thanks for your input.

It gives me some comfort to know that I am not the only one who is seeing this... I was starting to feel as if I was going completely bonkers!

Cheers M8,

Joe

Same here!!

One thing to note is price point. The price was just too good to be true on the D3200's, but it doesn't stop there as the D800's behave the same. Worse yet  ..a client I did a build for overseas shelled out for a D800E... same f*cking thing as the D800 output!

I think the F stop setting is the trick but that's not a good solve. Diffraction is an issue on larger sensors I think.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on July 31, 2013, 04:50:18 PM
Hi Lee,

Thanks for your input.

It gives me some comfort to know that I am not the only one who is seeing this... I was starting to feel as if I was going completely bonkers!

Cheers M8,

Joe

Same here!!

One thing to note is price point. The price was just too good to be true on the D3200's, but it doesn't stop there as the D800's behave the same. Worse yet  ..a client I did a build for overseas shelled out for a D800E... same f*cking thing as the D800 output!

I think the F stop setting is the trick but that's not a good solve. Diffraction is an issue on larger sensors I think.

Hi Lee,

I agree.

Re: F stop -- I've not tried going above F11 myself as I was concerned about the diffraction issue.  Screw it, I'll crank it up and see if it makes any difference :-)

Cheers,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Infinite on July 31, 2013, 04:53:53 PM
Hi Lee,

Thanks for your input.

It gives me some comfort to know that I am not the only one who is seeing this... I was starting to feel as if I was going completely bonkers!

Cheers M8,

Joe

Same here!!

One thing to note is price point. The price was just too good to be true on the D3200's, but it doesn't stop there as the D800's behave the same. Worse yet  ..a client I did a build for overseas shelled out for a D800E... same f*cking thing as the D800 output!

I think the F stop setting is the trick but that's not a good solve. Diffraction is an issue on larger sensors I think.

Hi Lee,

I agree.

Re: F stop -- I've not tried going above F11 myself as I was concerned about the diffraction issue.  Screw it, I'll crank it up and see if it makes any difference :-)

Cheers,

Joe

It's OK and necessary for some shots. Say people lying down or doing dynamic sweeping poses, deep into frame. On the 600D's they can do it. The Nikon's not so much.

Even on head scanning anything lower than f10 will produce DOF blur, especially top down (head to neck) or side cameras (shoulder / ear to nose)

DOF is a pain in the neck!! DOF! BEGONE FOUL DEMON!!!

Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on July 31, 2013, 04:54:48 PM
On the surface the D3200 seems like a great buy... however, if the kit lenses are not acceptable that means one has to budget for the additional expense of primes.  Whereas... one can get away with using the kit lenses that come with the Canon's and the image quality seems superior anyway (based on my tests).  So at least as far as I am concerned, overall the Canon's still seem like a far better value for money.

Cheers,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on July 31, 2013, 04:57:20 PM
DOF is a pain in the neck!! DOF! BEGONE FOUL DEMON!!!

LMAO -- I'm going to have a T-Shirt with this printed up on it  ;D

Cheers,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Andrew on July 31, 2013, 05:48:26 PM
Not sure if you guys missed my photo samples from D7100 vs 600D vs D3200 - clearly Nikon D7100 captured more detail than Canon... Not just in this comparison but in my everyday use as well.

So either D7100 kit is better than 600D kit, or my Canon gear needs cleaning/fine-tuning focus :)

Also, too bad you can buy two and a half 600D for the price of one D7100 :)

Andrew
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on July 31, 2013, 06:29:21 PM
Not sure if you guys missed my photo samples from D7100 vs 600D vs D3200 - clearly Nikon D7100 captured more detail than Canon... Not just in this comparison but in my everyday use as well.

So either D7100 kit is better than 600D kit, or my Canon gear needs cleaning/fine-tuning focus :)

Also, too bad you can buy two and a half 600D for the price of one D7100 :)

Andrew

Hi Andrew,

Not at all, I saw your test images.

I didn't comment further for a few reasons...

First, I found it somewhat difficult to make judgements about the data because it was cropped and I could not see the full frame.

Second, as I don't own a D7100 myself and really can't test it so I don't wan't to make any judgements without being able to do so.

Just so you know... my purpose here isn't to bash Nikon.  My only intent is to try and figure out why all the D3200's that I own don't seem capable of producing a sharp, in focus image.

I know that people say that the D3200 is a great camera, I've done a pile of research, read the reviews and   many, many comments by users... yet, I think the images that I've posted speak for themselves.  Until such time as someone can prove to me that the D3200 can produce a decent, sharp image I am going to say that it can't  :-\

Believe me, I WANT someone to prove me wrong... better yet, I want someone to show me how to create a sharp image with my D3200's -- I would LOVE nothing more   :)

I challenge anyone to do the following with a Nikon D3200:

Place subject at 1 meter
Evenly Light subject with studio flash/softbox
Put D3200 on tripod
Set quality to RAW
Set camera to use default sharpening setting (don't boost in camera sharpening).
Use the standard 18-55 kit lens
Set focal length to 18mm
Set shutter to 1/125
Set Fstop  to F11
Focus and take picture

Please post image and lets see if any portion of it is actually sharp??

Or does the image look like it's been taken through a diffusion filter?  :-[


As I've demonstrated, when a similar test is done  with the Canon T2i (550D) the result IS acceptable.... so clearly the D3200 image quality is inferior to that of the Canon under these circumstances.


Again... I'm not trying to slag off Nikon or upset anyone... honestly!

All I want to do is to find out why the D3200 seems to produce such crappy images and find a solution.

I openly welcome any help and suggestions in doing so.

Cheers,

Joe



Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Infinite on July 31, 2013, 06:37:48 PM
Not sure if you guys missed my photo samples from D7100 vs 600D vs D3200 - clearly Nikon D7100 captured more detail than Canon... Not just in this comparison but in my everyday use as well.

So either D7100 kit is better than 600D kit, or my Canon gear needs cleaning/fine-tuning focus :)

Also, too bad you can buy two and a half 600D for the price of one D7100 :)

Andrew

Yes I saw those, thanks for posting. I'm with Joe, I'm not bashing any make just sharing observations. In your D3200 image it's a great example of it's soft yellowish type of output. I didn't notice a dramatic increase in sharpness on the D7200, considering the price difference we would hope to see a difference.

From my D7200 and D3200 tests, they were softer than the Canon 600D output. I had 2x D7200's to test with. Using Kit and Prime lenses.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Andrew on July 31, 2013, 06:41:07 PM
I am 100% with you and anyone else on that D3200 is a hot steamy pile of blur. After testing the one unit I had available, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone other than casual photographers who downsample their photos for web-use. Certainly wouldn't recommend it for photogrammetry.

But D7100 is a different story, the proof is in the pics for anyone who will take the time to do some pixel peeping. It does not have the same soft focus issues that D3200 has. It actually produces more detailed photos than 600D.

I am not biased towards Nikon either, I am actually sticking to Canons for my build (2,5x cheaper) :)

Andrew
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Infinite on July 31, 2013, 06:49:33 PM
But D7100 is a different story, the proof is in the pics for anyone who will take the time to do some pixel peeping. It does not have the same soft focus issues that D3200 has. It actually produces more detailed photos than 600D.


I've taken the time to do that, and I didn't notice any significant change in detail, most certainly the same with the D800E, which is a beast. Maybe at lower f-stops for general photography (both D800 and D7100) but anything past f10 for multi-cam photogrammetry. Nope.

I prefer Nikon's build without a doubt.  :)
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: aphextwin on July 31, 2013, 07:24:44 PM
What makes me a little "dizzy" in this discussion is my fear that it's going nowhere ;-)

Try to figure out what major constraings you?ve got:

- shutter speed (should be fixed at the longest possible value)
- DoF

Determine how big EXACTLY your sharp room should be, which means in other words, how small/wide your f-value can be. this automatically constraints your ISO as it is the only value left you can trigger. Another point concerning shutter-speed is: Can you increase your light-level?

If this does not work, your only chance is to get a "quicker" sensor that reduces less noise at higher ISOs (i.e. without bayer-matrix (like Leica Monochrome... haha) and take texture-pictures extra) or get a smaller sensor to physically increase DOF. Imho the noise a smaller sensor introduces is much less than the noise that brings higher ISO / missing sharpness by larger f).

If the Nikons don't to the job, forget about them. A large sensor is not ALLWAYS a good choice as I mentioned some posts above. I did quite decent quality object-reconstructions with a turn-table using a Canon G11 one year ago.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: chadfx on July 31, 2013, 07:25:52 PM
I have to say that I am still a bit flabbergasted about the poor images coming out of that D3200 and that it hasn't really come up in most general reviews...but the proof is in your examples.

I just can't see how those cameras can deliver such mediocre results and most general reviews haven't noted it.

At least there are alternatives out there, I suppose.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on July 31, 2013, 07:30:11 PM
I have to say that I am still a bit flabbergasted about the poor images coming out of that D3200 and that it hasn't really come up in most general reviews...but the proof is in your examples.

I just can't see how those cameras can deliver such mediocre results and most general reviews haven't noted it.

At least there are alternatives out there, I suppose.

Hi Chadfx,

Me too!

I don't understand it either  :-\

I've taken the matter up with some of my hardcore Nikon shooter colleagues here in New York to see if anyone can get to the bottom of this.

I'll be the first to post any solutions that I might find here... so stay tuned!

Cheers,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Infinite on July 31, 2013, 07:45:09 PM
What makes me a little "dizzy" in this discussion is my fear that it's going nowhere ;-)

Try to figure out what major constraings you?ve got:

- shutter speed (should be fixed at the longest possible value)
- DoF

Determine how big EXACTLY your sharp room should be, which means in other words, how small/wide your f-value can be. this automatically constraints your ISO as it is the only value left you can trigger. Another point concerning shutter-speed is: Can you increase your light-level?

If this does not work, your only chance is to get a "quicker" sensor that reduces less noise at higher ISOs (i.e. without bayer-matrix (like Leica Monochrome... haha) and take texture-pictures extra) or get a smaller sensor to physically increase DOF. Imho the noise a smaller sensor introduces is much less than the noise that brings higher ISO / missing sharpness by larger f).

If the Nikons don't to the job, forget about them. A large sensor is not ALLWAYS a good choice as I mentioned some posts above. I did quite decent quality object-reconstructions with a turn-table using a Canon G11 one year ago.

";-)" these contribute to going no where :)

I think the examples point out that the D3200's aren't the best type of camera for photogrammetry.

F-stop is pretty much already locked out at f10-f14 anything below or above is unacceptable.

ISO is fixed, it must be for noise constraints.

Exposure is also fixed between 1/4 to 1/10th because of syncing. The lighting exposure will always be the same because ISO is fixed and the main flash lights and ambient light determine exposure. This leaves f stop which you only have a small window to play with due to DOF issues.

I still think the outcome is Canon perform better, at least that's what I've observed from my own experiments, similar to Joe.

Multi-cam photogrammetry is a whole different ball game, than compared to regular photography. ALLOT harder to manage and control, especially to try and achieve similar results that you would normally get with regular photography. Honestly, "photographers" don't know how easy they've got it!
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Andrew on August 01, 2013, 01:42:54 PM
My summary of this thread (feel free to add/correct if I missed something or if I got anything

wrong):

Canon 600D: (from my own experience)

+ excellent image quality
+ reasonable price
+ standard USB connection with decent cable lenght
+ wide range of lenses, including good but affordable ones

- syncs slower than Nikon, occasional lag inconsistencies
- can't fully open battery bay while mounted

Nikon 7100D: (from my own experience)

+ excellent image quality (virtually same res as 600D, slightly better dynamic range)
+ battery bay fully accessible when mounted
+ fast shutter, syncs better, more consistent

- 2,5 times the price of 600D
- larger filesize=Photoscan needs more memory and time to produce results identical to 600D
- silly proprietary USB cable (at least decent lenght, compared to D3200)
- occasional build quality issues (faulty USB port, oil spills on sensor, defective focus)
- somewhat more expensive lenses

Nikon D3200 (from my own experience)

+ significantly cheaper than 600D
+ syncs faster than 600D
+battery bay fully accessible when mounted

- produces very soft images unsuitable for serious photogrammetry
- silly proprietary USB cable, absurdly short

Nikon D800/E

+ super speedy and syncs fast
+ good image quality (although supposedly does not edge 600D despite 36mp vs 18mp)
+ excellent build quality

- extremely expensive
- full frame means DOF issues
- full frame means expensive and less flexible lenses
- oil spills soil the sensor

Here goes another crop comparing D3200 vs 600D vs D7100, full images available upon request:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/w2lfk5re1sopcgx/D3200vs600DvsD7100.jpg (https://www.dropbox.com/s/w2lfk5re1sopcgx/D3200vs600DvsD7100.jpg)


Conclusion is obvious: Considering price, quality and performance, Canon 600D remains as the

most reasonable and most widely recommended DSLR for multicam photogrammetry. A camera that is 2 and a half years old... :)

Cheers,
Andrew

Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Magnus on August 01, 2013, 03:52:24 PM
Hello all!

Thanks to all of you for the great info!

Andrew, I was just wondering regarding this point about the 600D:

- syncs slower than Nikon, occasional lag inconsistencies

I thought from your testing with the Camera Axe/Multi Flash Plus that the 550D was inconsistent but the 600D was not (when pre-focus command was taken into account)?

Best, Magnus.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Magnus on August 01, 2013, 04:24:45 PM
Hello again!

I don't know if you guys have run into this or not, but it seems that the D3200 offloads are somewhat slow?
We noticed this yesterday when we only had the Canons in the rig that the transfers with Smart Shooter were much quicker than in the mixed situation. Could be some issue on our end but just wanted to know if anyone else had noticed this? Might be filesize, but the difference seemed quite large for it just being that.

Best, Magnus.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Andrew on August 01, 2013, 04:46:13 PM
Andrew, I was just wondering regarding this point about the 600D:
- syncs slower than Nikon, occasional lag inconsistencies

I thought from your testing with the Camera Axe/Multi Flash Plus that the 550D was inconsistent but the 600D was not (when pre-focus command was taken into account)?


My tests were not very accurate (I measured against incredibly slow cheap studio flash), so I could only confirm that they are much more reliable than 550D, but I would have to get much faster speedlight and do extensive tests to get more confidence in my findings. In contrast, Lee has been testing and using 600d's in real work scenarios for a good while now and I have a lot of confidence in his claims, so I based what I wrote on his findings (big thanks, Lee!).

Oh, I haven't noticed particularly slow Smart Shooter transfers from D3200, no. Photos take a tiny bit longer (perhaps 20-30% longer) to land on my HDD but files are larger so thats understandable.

-Andrew
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Magnus on August 01, 2013, 05:04:38 PM
Hello Andrew!

Ah, I just thought that the 43ms random lag you observed before pre-focus command was sent seems to go well with the 1/20th limit on the 600D I think Lee mentioned.
Anyways not really an issue for me at all, hehe. I just thought I had misread your post.

Yeah, I am guessing the transfers are due to the old laptop computer we used (we saw like 5-10sec difference, hehe).

Best, Magnus.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: scanlab.ca on August 02, 2013, 06:38:26 PM
Hey all,

I've been following this thread and looked at some sample images coming out of D3200. They do look pretty soft. But don't really represent the quality i'm getting.

I'm attaching another sample image that was taken with d3200, with the following settings: ISO100, f8, 1/25th, Sharpening OFF, Prime lens.

About sharpening. As far as I understand SIFT algorithm does its own sharpening, and a whole array of other post processing manipulations in order to find proper neighbouring edges/pixels. So, leaving this job to camera or other software may actually reduce build quality.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19149582/D3200%20%28000005010712%29_00169.JPG

Now, I do need more light in there, but this should only make things better.


Cheers,
Ruslan Vasylev
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on August 02, 2013, 06:45:09 PM
Hey all,

I've been following this thread and looked at some sample images coming out of D3200. They do look pretty soft. But don't really represent the quality i'm getting.

I'm attaching another sample image that was taken with d3200, with the following settings: ISO100, f8, 1/25th, Sharpening OFF, Prime lens.

About sharpening. As far as I understand SIFT algorithm does its own sharpening, and a whole array of other post processing manipulations in order to find proper neighbouring edges/pixels. So, leaving this job to camera or other software may actually reduce build quality.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19149582/D3200%20%28000005010712%29_00169.JPG

Now, I do need more light in there, but this should only make things better.


Cheers,
Ruslan Vasylev

Thanks for sharing your results!

A few questions, exactly what lens are you using?

How far is the subject from the lens?

Cheers,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: scanlab.ca on August 02, 2013, 07:01:53 PM
The subject is approximately 1.3m from the sensor.

I can't really tell which lens it is exactly(we have a few of them, all manual btw), since me and my partner have rearranged the setup, but we're getting pretty consistent results, well maybe except for the slight color tint cause of older lenses and weather conditions they've been kept in.

Also, we're using constant fluorescent light source, no flashing... also notice that crazy long exposure time. :)

I'm not sure how valid the sharpness argument is for Photogrammetry, since the more cheaper cameras you have the closer you can move them in and get that "missing" sharpness-detail back, as well as, capture more parallax angles while at it. Unless the minimum focus distance starts getting in your way.

Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Infinite on August 02, 2013, 07:15:56 PM
The subject is approximately 1.3m from the sensor.

I can't really tell which lens it is exactly(we have a few of them, all manual btw), since me and my partner have rearranged the setup, but we're getting pretty consistent results, well maybe except for the slight color tint cause of older lenses and weather conditions they've been kept in.

Also, we're using constant fluorescent light source, no flashing... also notice that crazy long exposure time. :)

I'm not sure how valid the sharpness argument is for Photogrammetry, since the more cheaper cameras you have the closer you can move them in and get that "missing" sharpness-detail back, as well as, capture more parallax angles while at it. Unless the minimum focus distance starts getting in your way.

Hi Ruslan,

The photo is nice but it's are still very soft compared to a Canon output.

http://www.ir-ltd.net/uploads/01_Camera-901.JPG

Sharpness and contrast is critical with Photogrammetry if you want to get consistent highly detailed scans. Any kind of blurring or softness will ruin the scan output. Unless you only require a medium resolution scan.

Continuous lighting is very hard to capture with, unless you have super bright (Lightstage dark contact less bright!) output.

I've run many tests with the D3200 and they just fail in comparison to the 600D.

Have you tested with Canons?
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on August 02, 2013, 07:23:46 PM

It's also interesting that your lens details are omitted from the EXIF data.

Mind you, I'm not trying to imply anything by saying this...rather, I'm trying to point out that it is near impossible to draw any conclusions regarding the viability of the D3200 unless all the variables are known.

After all, if you are using a prime lens that cost $1000 to achieve these results it pretty much makes the point of even using this camera in the first place moot.   ;)

Cheers,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on August 02, 2013, 07:54:27 PM
Some interesting image comparisons between the Nikon D3200 and some other cameras can be found here.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d3200/nikon-d3200A.HTM

Scroll down the the "Image Quality" Section in particular.

Cheers,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: scanlab.ca on August 02, 2013, 07:59:37 PM
Hey Lee,

Your image does look super crisp.
We'll be testing d3200 at f13 soon with Flash and see how it performs.

But, my main point was that there are multiple ways of capturing sharpness. It no longer is a factor of one single camera, but of all cameras working in conjunction to produce the best result.

I look at it as a balancing act.
The problems we're solving are sort of different it seems.

For those who are at 40 cams or less the main issue is the number of angles we can capture. Cause what good is a sharp camera when you have to rotate the subject and it moves accidently. The geometry build screws up and all the sharpness of a few cameras will be smudged by this one flop.

Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: scanlab.ca on August 02, 2013, 08:05:23 PM

It's also interesting that your lens details are omitted from the EXIF data.

Mind you, I'm not trying to imply anything by saying this...rather, I'm trying to point out that it is near impossible to draw any conclusions regarding the viability of the D3200 unless all the variables are known.

After all, if you are using a prime lens that cost $1000 to achieve these results it pretty much makes the point of even using this camera in the first place moot.   ;)

Cheers,

Joe

Oh wow, I'll take that as a compliment!

The image was most likely taken with a regular manual  f/2.8, 50mm Nikkor lens which goes for around $50-$70. It is a manual lens hence no EXIF data, so we do our own calibration on these lenses.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on August 02, 2013, 08:13:10 PM

It's also interesting that your lens details are omitted from the EXIF data.

Mind you, I'm not trying to imply anything by saying this...rather, I'm trying to point out that it is near impossible to draw any conclusions regarding the viability of the D3200 unless all the variables are known.

After all, if you are using a prime lens that cost $1000 to achieve these results it pretty much makes the point of even using this camera in the first place moot.   ;)

Cheers,

Joe

Oh wow, I'll take that as a compliment!

The image was most likely taken with a regular manual  f/2.8, 50mm Nikkor lens which goes for around $50-$70. It is a manual lens hence no EXIF data, so we do our own calibration on these lenses.

LOL!  You see, I knew that you might take my comment in the wrong way  :-[

But honestly, you should take my comment as a compliment because your image is quite an improvement over what I am seeing with the D3200 and the standard kit lens.   I'd be interested in seeing what sort of results you would get using a similar setup and the 18-55mm kit lens at a distance of 1 meter using the 18mm setting.

Thank you for providing some further details about the lens you are using... now that is a lot more helpful.

Again, I didn't mean to cause insult or offence.... just trying to compile all the facts  :)

Cheers,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on August 02, 2013, 08:42:11 PM

Ok,

I've have my 1960s' vintage Nikon F with a Nikkor-H 1:2 f=50mm prime lens.

I slapped it on my D3200 body and this is what I get:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38398338/D3200/DSC_0006_DxO_50mm_NikonF.jpg

Cheers,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: bernie wempe on August 02, 2013, 08:49:23 PM
hi all,
i'm Ruslan's business partner and just wanted to add we're using the Nikon 50mm f/1.8 E pancake lens in that shot he posted.
thanks for sharing info and helping us get our heads around theses D3200's.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on August 02, 2013, 08:53:51 PM
hi all,
i'm Ruslan's business partner and just wanted to add we're using the Nikon 50mm f/1.8 E pancake lens in that shot he posted.
thanks for sharing info and helping us get our heads around theses D3200's.

Hi Bernie,

Thank you very much for the information, I really appreciate it!

Cheers,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Infinite on August 02, 2013, 09:36:54 PM
hi all,
i'm Ruslan's business partner and just wanted to add we're using the Nikon 50mm f/1.8 E pancake lens in that shot he posted.
thanks for sharing info and helping us get our heads around theses D3200's.

Hi Bernie,

Thank you very much for the information, I really appreciate it!

Cheers,

Joe

Your newest shot looked better Joe. It would be easier to tell compared to that previous girl though.

Here is a direct comparison I found from D3200 and 600D on the same Rig, same lighting, same "settings"

D3200

http://www.ir-ltd.net/uploads/013_D3200.JPG

http://www.ir-ltd.net/uploads/013_D3200_7.JPG

600D

http://www.ir-ltd.net/uploads/01_Camera-401.JPG

The comparisons are subtle but the D3200's are softer, which makes a difference. Subtle but it does during build.

Also notice the noise / grain present 013_D3200_7.JPG in the blacks and that's at ISO100! notice the orange / yellow tinge. White balance was set to Flash at the time.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: meshmaster on August 02, 2013, 09:49:16 PM
I agree Lee.

Obviously, there is no question that the supplied 18-55 kit lens are rubbish.

I'll try and shoot the girl again as soon as I can with my vintage 50mm Nikkor.

Thanks for the images Lee, they look pretty damn good but I still prefer the Canon's !  :)

Cheers,

Joe
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: polygon on August 03, 2013, 09:10:17 PM
Hi Lee?
   I saw a support bar on the back of the neck in your pictures,  Does that mean the shutter speed is not fast enough?
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Infinite on August 03, 2013, 09:19:23 PM
Hi Lee?
   I saw a support bar on the back of the neck in your pictures,  Does that mean the shutter speed is not fast enough?

No and yes :) it's to keep the subjects within the focus / capture volume and also to aid in FACS alignment, as I tend to take 45-100x scans per subject for clients, mostly. It depends on the project. Also useful for multi-lighting.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: bisenberger on August 19, 2013, 05:33:54 AM
A while ago, when I studied resolution charts at dxomark website, high f-stop seemed to be lens equalizer - pro lens would peform infinitely better at f4-8, but light diffraction at f11 and up seemed to degrade image quality to comparable levels with cheap lens.

Can anyone share their experience, or better yet, share comparison pics of cheap and good glass at higher fstop?

I think this is true for full frame and higher MP. But anything below f8 is useless for full body or face scanning as the focus range is so small. Anything blurred will create highly noisy scan output  :-[

Hi Infinite,
I'm curious what focal length you are using that you need the higher F stop for increased DOF. Wide angle lens have good DOF at lower F stops.
Thanks,
Bill
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Infinite on August 19, 2013, 05:56:41 AM
Hi Bill,

50mm. The focus range is very narrow below f10.

Thanks,
Lee
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: bisenberger on August 19, 2013, 06:01:58 AM
Thanks for the quick response Lee. I visited your web site, amazing work!  8)
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Infinite on August 19, 2013, 06:25:57 AM
Thanks for the quick response Lee. I visited your web site, amazing work!  8)

Thanks. It's only mainly been possible thanks to Agisoft Photoscan :) amazing software.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: lgs777 on August 29, 2013, 06:09:53 PM
How about sony A57 guys.. I only have this one.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: ikercito on September 30, 2013, 07:15:15 PM
Hi everyone, I've reading this topic thoroughly the last couple of days, as I?m trying to get onboard with 3D scanning based on photography. Agisoft looks like the best cost effective alternative around.

I'm a photographer myself, and I'm wondering if any of you has taken into consideration sensor sizes in relation to Depth of Field. The bigger the sensor size is (35mm or APS-C common in DSLRs), the shallower the DOF. That's why I'm thinking smaller sized P&S cameras would prevent the problems with DOF posted before, while retaining reasonable apertures to avoid subject motion. It's obviously a balance between DOF and quality... But I'd reckon a good Canon G15 could very well make the cut. Anybody thought of this kind of alternative?
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: chadfx on September 30, 2013, 08:49:27 PM
Hey Ikercito, I've kept that exact aspect in mind (deeper DOF with smaller sensors) and worked with some other alternatives.

I haven't done as much extensive research as many of the others here (especially for full body capture). Overall, to me there seem to be tradeoffs with all approaches. As you note, the bigger sensor cameras require smaller apertures to achieve deeper DOF. I've used an Olympus OMD micro 4/3 camera for a number of objects and it generally has worked fine as well, and gives you a bit more DOF at similar apertures. However, it also suffers from diffraction issues more readily than larger sensor cameras. So I usually can't go smaller than f8 or f11 on the Olympus, where I can do down to f16 or f22 on my Canon 5D2. So I sort of feel that it becomes a bit of a toss up as to which is better for yielding the best DOF results.

I have also used a Canon A3300 IS, which is able to shoot RAW images when used with the CHDK firmware (http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page). It has an even smaller sensor than the G15, but no real aperture control per se. It also can create fairly well detailed objects if photographed decently (see attachment).

There are also noise and dynamic range issues along with overall image quality and resolving power to consider. Overall I can get sharper, less noisy images and hold more shadow and highlight detail in the images from the full frame Canon. The Olympus micro 4/3 is very close in most aspects, though. Dropping all the way down to the Canon P&S, (purchased refurbished directly from Canon for under $60!), it certainly is the lesser camera in all aspects, but it CAN generate good enough images in many cases depending on your needs.

The G15 has a slightly bigger sensor than A3300, so that might help with some of the image quality issues, but not give up too much of the DOF capabilities. You also might look into the Sony RX100, which has a bigger sensor, but still not as large as micro 4/3, etc.

When it comes to full body capture with dozens of cameras, you will likely need to step up to the Canon or Nikon DSLRs as they have the most complete support for remote control and synchronization. I have done facial captures with 12 of the little Canon's with USB triggering and CHDK, but I wouldn't say that it would be good enough to sell as a service, compared to what most of the others are doing out there.

Not sure if any of that is helpful, but it would be great to hear how it goes for you.

Cheers, -Chad
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: ikercito on October 01, 2013, 12:50:36 AM
Thanks a lot for your info Chadfx, that's really valuable. Being a newbie myself, I was just wondering if that option was considered. I see that lens sharpness is one of the key facts to get proper scans, together with a high pixel count. That certainly screams DSLR. There's and important advantage in Dynamic Range with DSLRs compared to P&S, but I guess that could be solved with careful lighting and exposure. Same for noise, as long as the camera has a clean low ISO. (So forget about cheaper ones..)

I've done a few tests with the camera i had lying around (Lumix LX5) and there's certainly a huge load of noise in the scans, probably because i didn't have time to light properly and quickly processed the RAWs. I'm coming to terms with the whole process, it's quite a steep learning curve heavily influenced by the hardware quality i guess...

I was thinking of building a no frills camera array with point and shoots, similar to yours, but for now the LX5s have been ditched (no way to release remotely, nor sync with other cameras). I've never used CHDK, so making an investment in a dozen or so Canon compacts is giving me chills for now. Doing it with DSLRs is clearly out of the way for now. I have no intention to give it as a service, there's still a lot to learn. I'll keep testing.

Thanks everyone!
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: tommyboy on January 20, 2014, 09:34:22 AM
Lee/all, one more question about the Nikons for y'all if you don't mind!  I dig the Canons.  However I've done several tests with 6 each of Canons and Nikons stacked right on each other in stereo pairs, and the Nikons generally result in 20-30% more points resolved, and the resulting mesh is definitely less noisy.  Sounds like some have found otherwise?

I suspect that while the Nikons images are not pin-sharp at the pixel level, perhaps overall they still contain more detail than a sharp 18MP image.

Of course, to make it interesting, the resulting textures from the Nikons aren't as sharp or color-accurate as the Canon, on the same geometry.  And great textures is a big reason we're all here...

Would it be madness to attempt an array of mixed Canons and Nikons, using all images for the mesh solve, and only the Canon images for textures?  That makes my head hurt.  :o
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Infinite on January 20, 2014, 02:08:34 PM
Lee/all, one more question about the Nikons for y'all if you don't mind!  I dig the Canons.  However I've done several tests with 6 each of Canons and Nikons stacked right on each other in stereo pairs, and the Nikons generally result in 20-30% more points resolved, and the resulting mesh is definitely less noisy.  Sounds like some have found otherwise?

I suspect that while the Nikons images are not pin-sharp at the pixel level, perhaps overall they still contain more detail than a sharp 18MP image.

Of course, to make it interesting, the resulting textures from the Nikons aren't as sharp or color-accurate as the Canon, on the same geometry.  And great textures is a big reason we're all here...

Would it be madness to attempt an array of mixed Canons and Nikons, using all images for the mesh solve, and only the Canon images for textures?  That makes my head hurt.  :o

I've found the opposite. The Canons are definitely superior in every aspect, apart from build quality of the casing and design.

It all depends how you light your subjects. If you use strong, harsh front lighting, Nikons are good. If you use globally diffused bounced light, you will see the Nikons really don't cope very well at all. We see soft, noisy images. They all (the ones I tested) seem to suffer from a yellow / orange colour tinge.

Canon's are just a great average, just right for photogrammetry.

The best thing to do is go with what you feel is best. There is NO rule book with Photogrammetry, so we can all make our own paths of discovery  :)
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: tommyboy on January 22, 2014, 09:23:46 PM
Thanks Lee!  So far my tests had been on Medium, I ran some more tests on High and the results got much closer.  Our lighting is pretty diffuse, but our tests have been on a turntable so far, so there is probably some directional bias that would favor the Nikons as you've suggested.  Not to mention the Canons are significantly less $$$, which means more cameras for coverage.

Given the extra ease of use, MLU support, standard connectors, superior textures, and overwhelming community endorsement, Canon makes sense!
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Andrew on February 12, 2014, 01:04:57 PM
Heads up, Canon just announced upgrade to their entry level DSLR - Rebel T5/1200D model now sports 18mp sensor, presumably the same that we know and love from 600D/6500D/700D :)

Multicam rigs just got significantly cheaper?
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: tommyboy on February 13, 2014, 10:48:40 PM
What is the appeal of this model, given that a T3i/600D sells on Amazon for $50 less, and seems close to same in spec with the addition of an adjustable LCD display?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004J3V90Y
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IB1BTWI

Will it ultimately be priced lower than a T3i/600D?
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Infinite on February 13, 2014, 10:57:11 PM
What is the appeal of this model, given that a T3i/600D sells on Amazon for $50 less, and seems close to same in spec with the addition of an adjustable LCD display?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004J3V90Y
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IB1BTWI

Will it ultimately be priced lower than a T3i/600D?

This is why because Canon are doing this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hacFiIXj9SM
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Exhale on February 14, 2014, 12:24:20 AM
:D hahaha.....    indeed  Lee
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Andrew on February 14, 2014, 08:45:54 PM
There seems to be some confusion about suggested price of new product entering market, vs street price after the dust settles :)

Everywhere I have ever looked, Canon 1100D was significantly cheaper than Canon 600D, and I am pretty sure (well, hoping) that won't change with Canon 1100D replacement.

Agreed on the milking though, If my count is right, this is Canon's fifth camera in last three years, using same exact sensor.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Tyler J on February 25, 2014, 12:07:15 PM
The canon 1100D is making pictures as good as the 600D?
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Andrew on February 25, 2014, 01:35:29 PM
No, it doesn't, the newly introduced 1200D should. But let's wait for reviews to confirm that and for introductory prices to fall to where they need to be (current 1100D price point) :)
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: YesOk on June 02, 2015, 03:47:29 PM
I'd hate to perform necromancy on an old thread but is this discussion continuing somewhere else. What is the current recommendation on DSLR's.

Could someone provide a link to a better thread?
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: ruffy on June 03, 2015, 12:40:36 AM
I am very happy with my 80 x 3200D's and get great results.
So does Alex Henry with 90+.
Camera sync is great at 1/100sec - no black frames - ever.
At 1/160 a not every take is perfect.
The big plus with Nikon is that the 3200D, 3300D and 3500D all have the same sensor and integrate well with each other including synchronisation.
If I need more cameras, I can easily upgrade.
Canon do not do this - every model has a different sensor&shutter making a Canon system limited for on going development.
Canon also have a non supporting attitude in Australia, even after purchasing 60 x 10D with $4k each back in 2003.
Nikon were far better (not great) to deal with.
Lets face it, most companies with the exception of the US are nothing more than box pushers.
I think results are based more on correct camera placement and lighting.
Nothing is easy.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: YesOk on June 03, 2015, 12:34:18 PM
I am very happy with my 80 x 3200D's and get great results.

What do you think about people complaining about the blurriness of the D3200?

Is it just an issue caused by downscaling a 24MP image? Do you downscale the image before construction?
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: ruffy on June 04, 2015, 04:51:33 AM
I work at full res all the time.
Not sure why people are complaining.
Perhaps they are comparing zoom to prime.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Tyler J on June 27, 2015, 10:56:57 AM
So I got a 600D and a 1100D, there does not seems to be a huge difference.
The 600D cost 2 times more than the 1100D on the second hand market

Comparaison, 600D on the left, 1100D on the right :
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/91396766/600D1100D/comp1.JPG
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/91396766/600D1100D/comp2.JPG

600D
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/91396766/600D1100D/Canon%20600D.JPG
1100D
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/91396766/600D1100D/canon%201100D.JPG

F8, TV 1/10, ISO 100, stock 18-55 lens@18mm, tripod, 2s delay, miror locked
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: rarach on May 16, 2017, 07:11:24 PM
I will try for a necromancy one more time on this thread, as the time has moved along and so have Canon and Nikon :)

I am considering building a photogrammetrical rig for faces using 4 DSLRs and my primary candidates are successors of the cameras that have been very much discussed in this thread. Ergo:

Nikon D3400 with prime lenses from Nikkor 50mm 1.8AF
Canon 1300D with prime lenses from Canon 50mm 1.8AF

If anyone could help me with any kind of an insight on these two cameras, and why to take one instead of another, I  would be more than thankful for your time and answers.

I would also like to use continuous lighting: any advice on this topic I would also appreciate - as this bothers me, for now, the plan is 8* 900led panels :D... and as my calculations go this will probably not be enough ... would you recommend flashes instead?

To be honest, I am worried about Nikon not having a wired shutter and am not sure how to synchronise the shutters at the moment for these cameras. On Canon, it should be straight forward using the wired shutters.

So thank anyone in advance for your insight.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: Exhale on May 25, 2017, 10:39:04 PM
go for Canon.
Title: Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
Post by: league123 on June 19, 2017, 04:07:13 AM
I don't know if this study can somehow help you to figure out on which cam has a multi-face capture set-up. Here's the link https://infoscience.epfl.ch/record/183741/files/MSc_Thesis.pdf