Agisoft Metashape

Agisoft Metashape => General => Topic started by: 3dprintergear on September 09, 2012, 05:18:45 AM

Title: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: 3dprintergear on September 09, 2012, 05:18:45 AM
Hi All, sorry if this has been asked. I did a search and couldn't find an answer.

Is there any reason, given its only for personal use, to use photoscan, rather than the free service Autodesk offer with 123Dcatch?

I want to print a model of my pregnant partner. (First step is to actually do the scan, and so far I haven't been very successful.)

Thanks

Regards
Jamie
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: Wishgranter on September 09, 2012, 10:03:27 AM
Hello Jamie, one of the simplest thing, it is NOT for commercial use, have a lot of limitation ( texture size ), reconstruction of object is not perfect ( a lot of errors on models - pscan without flaws on same data set  ) and  one of last things, the ALIGN process in Pscan is one of the best,  im could put together things that other solutions could never put together.

If want just play or better just have your data then someone from here could process it for you ( even me ), if want be better in photogrametry area, then Pscan "LITE" is best way to start.   

123D is just technology preview..........
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: 3dprintergear on September 10, 2012, 02:02:53 AM
Hi Wishgranter,

Thankyou for your reply.

So you are saying Photoscan lite would do a better job than 123Dcatch?
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: 3dprintergear on September 10, 2012, 05:19:24 AM
Also, can you give tips on how I should setup for best shots?

I have a canon 350D (older model).

My understanding is for even light. So should I try outside? Or do I really need multiple light sources ?

No blur. Does this mean the background should also stay in focus?

Should the item take up 90% of the picture?

Although a huge amount of work, should the pictures be modified in photoshop first ? Or just use the raw photos as they come out the camera?

Thanks
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: Wishgranter on September 10, 2012, 09:27:11 AM
Canon 350D is enought

the light should just not to make a HARD shadows ( in what is just dark area - no information ) shadows are not a problem for Pscan

Blur is problematic, but it the object of interest stay SHARP then background can be blurred, but if possible work with SHARP images everytime - Pscan need to find "features" that its can calculate positions of photos.

Yes, object should be close enought shooted - amount of detail that can be reconstructed and for the ALIGN proces..

No Pshop editing if possible - editing of colors, sharpnes etc - small editing can be done but NO lens corection or something like that.....

Shoot few images, test it, if need help, we will need few screenshots.........

What d printer you use ? some profesional like Z-Corp or ????

Have a nice day..
 
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: 3dprintergear on September 10, 2012, 04:41:31 PM
Hi Wishgranter,

OK, I'll have another try and see how I go.

No Z-corp. I use an UP Plus. 3D printer.

Cheers
Jamie
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: Alexey Pasumansky on September 10, 2012, 04:49:53 PM
Hello Jamie,

I think you may find useful the following topics and tips related to the body capture:

http://www.agisoft.ru/forum/index.php?topic=411.0
http://www.agisoft.ru/forum/index.php?topic=578.0

http://downloads.agisoft.ru/pdf/Image%20Capture%20Tips%20-%20Full%20Body%20Capture.pdf


The main problems of the human body capture made by single camera is in providing static pose by model during the shooting.
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: kris3d on September 10, 2012, 09:17:00 PM
to Wishgranter:
I do not think this is the review article 123Dcatch technology.
I ran hundreds of tests and unfortunately Agisoft program very much disappointing.
Here you can compare and 123Dcatch , Agisoft.
123Dcatch !
(http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg441/scaled.php?server=441&filename=1234qr.jpg&res=landing)
Agisoft
(http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg96/scaled.php?server=96&filename=ag2t.jpg&res=landing)
Agisoft
(http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg689/scaled.php?server=689&filename=ag1rk.jpg&res=landing)
123Dcatch !
(http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg51/scaled.php?server=51&filename=12344u.jpg&res=landing)


my conclusions.
Agisoft works well but only in the laboratory.
Is a program for the reconstruction of planar surface structure.
The complex lumps, concatenate the empty space creates a lot of mistakes.
Quality is totally unacceptable.
The only plus is the quality of the textures ...
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: Wishgranter on September 10, 2012, 09:45:26 PM
Kris, read carefully on Autodesk site is a TECHNOLOGY PREVIEW, cannot use in any commercial work as far asi know- texture was limited to 2k. if YOU think is better then agisoft then use it, But many profesionals here use it in their work in a day-to-day  basis. Have you seen some sientific papers about comparations ? have seen few that are still in progres and im under NDA but what im have read is Pscan one of the best aviable tools and that say people that work in photogrametry for more than 10 years........

And by the way, autodesk give you just something to play, their REAL photogrametry sw is unreachable for anyone for now- Personaly know people behind it :-)

Do you think if you can use it freely then someone from here will pay for the PRO version ????????

Im personaly do a lot in cultural heritage, have tested MANY datasets, and pscan is only one solution that could process the data, and without any extra editing.....

Have a nice reading and thinking about it......


P.S. for many of your "photogrametrist" is 123D some miracle, but for profesionals is is a "garbage" because of what it does and what not.........

Pricing and Availability

The Autodesk 123D Make technology preview is available as a free* download for the Mac at www.123Dapp.com/make. The Autodesk 123D Catch public beta app is available for free* download from www.123Dapp.com/catch.
 
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: kris3d on September 10, 2012, 09:55:56 PM
That's what I thought as you do, and for that I bought Agisoft
What you say is pure theory.
I show these images.
The same set of data.
Even the blind see the advantage, free software ...
I regret that
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: Wishgranter on September 10, 2012, 10:59:12 PM
Kris my only question go on how LONG are you in photogrametry area ACTIVE ? how many sw packages have you tested ?? what are your results ?? are for home use or for "work" that is internationaly accepted as one of best in that area  ????

and for your own better understanding about im speaking PLEASE read few whitepapers from this link
http://www.agisoft.ru/wiki/Links_and_Resources

this is the smalles what you can do, personaly have read ALL from year 2002 from here http://www.isprs.org/publications/archives.aspx

afther that we can speak again......


 
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: kris3d on September 10, 2012, 11:21:27 PM
You can talk a lot.
But one picture replaces a 1000 words.
Nobody could do it better.
This set of pictures released online.

http://www.agisoft.ru/forum/index.php?topic=655.0

Here's the results of 123Dcatch

(http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg27/scaled.php?server=27&filename=12345es.jpg&res=landing)

Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: Wishgranter on September 10, 2012, 11:33:07 PM
Kris, don?t be like a child please.......

Say me just 2 arguments WHY the hell people buy the PRO version for 3500,- and then not use  the free solution from autodesk.  And they invest in HW of PCs up to 20.000 EUR ??

and as a homework, please give me at least 2  whitepapers that are about 123Catch - OK ?

and will repeat my questions:

Kris my question go on how LONG are you in photogrametry area ACTIVE ?
how many sw packages have you tested ??
what are your results ???
are for home use or for "work" that is internationaly accepted as one of best in that area  ?????
why all people here NOT use tools for remowing distorion of lenses ??????????


and as the american Indians say: HAWK
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: kris3d on September 11, 2012, 12:03:50 AM
loss of words.
You're right.
Most can not be wrong

I bought it too and thought it would be better.
But I see results, compares the work programs.
I draw conclusions.
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: Wishgranter on September 11, 2012, 12:20:34 AM
Kris take this forum as you personal gateway to photogrametry area, here is it the most active place where people share their knowlege ( as far then can ) with others and can give you a lot usefull hints.....

Is invested very heavy in photogrametry solututions and be prepared what all will come out in next 2 years  from all BIG players. but Agisoft is one of the best in implementations of OURs hints and upgrades to their software from what profit all here.......... + support with solving our "problems"

Have a nice evening :-)
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: gEEvEE on September 11, 2012, 01:07:26 AM
Dear Kris, dear Wishgranter,

Please, let us not start a battle here.

First of all, before people start to blame me, I wrote a lot of papers on PhotoScan but also looked at (as far as I see it) almost all other SfM application out there.

I have to agree with both of you. Kris, sure, if 123D Catch it is free, why would one not use it, right? The results are good for a free program, sometimes VERY good as you show yourself. Do you know why? Because the running engine at the SfM stage is from Capture3D: http://www.acute3d.com/
These guys make amazing software but – at least the last time I checked – it is not affordable for an individual or small company (I thought prices started at € 25 000 a few months ago).  That is why 123D catch is often so good with organic objects such as your subjects for which – sometimes – the PhotoScan might look inferior. I say might, because I do not know how your PhotoScan workflow is nor if you selected all parameters correctly. Anyhow, let us agree that 123D catch might in some instances deliver better results.

On the other hand, PhotoScan shines when it comes to aerial work and – do not get me wrong – creates some very good models of these organic small artefacts as well. Of course, why would you pay if you can get it for free (with a result sometimes surpassing the payware)? Well, if it works for you and your aims, stick to 123D Catch.

However, do not forget that (as Wishgranter said), 123D it is NOT for commercial purposes and last time I checked (I think about one year ago) you transfer the copyright of your content to Autodesk.
Besides, PhotoScan is THE application when it comes to one package for an integrated workflow. You can have many other free solutions (based on bundler or PhotoSnyth) and these also work reasonably well (check also VisualSfM), but they do not give you:


So in the end, it all comes down to what you want and need. Most people in this forum are from a photogrammetry background and like to work with aerials. Besides, the support of the PhotoScan people is top-notch: you know they will be there to answer all your questions and they will also continuously improve their software. Most importantly: you will always know what happens whit your data and have the ownership of everything you use or create!

Have a good evening,

Geert
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: Wishgranter on September 11, 2012, 10:58:34 AM
Good morning to all.
GeeVee. thanx for sharing this in-depht going knowlege and your insight in problematic......


 
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: kris3d on September 11, 2012, 11:21:04 AM
Show me some good quality scans.
The only guy in the world to do something this program something good
This http://www.ir-ltd.net/why-why-upgrade-to-agisoft-pro-edition.
But this guy has invested hundreds of thousands, and scans improves in Zbrush.

In this forum, I see only the problems of users.
Where is the sense of the effects of gallery work! ?
Show me your scans, and I'll tell you what it's worth this program.
I say I'm not only show you the evidence.
Do you have pictures. You can compare them.
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: Wishgranter on September 11, 2012, 11:44:31 AM
my last commnet on this:
read carefuly what GeeVee wrote and im forget it to mention too:

However, do not forget that (as Wishgranter said), 123D it is NOT for commercial purposes and last time I checked (I think about one year ago) you transfer the copyright of your content to Autodesk.

do you know what that mean in real life ??????? do you know why they give it "FREE" ??

YOU give COPYRIGHT to AUTODESK, they are the OWNER of YOUR stuff !!!! if they want and they they WILL sooner or later sue YOU that you use THEIR DATA...
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: FoodMan on September 11, 2012, 04:19:16 PM
well no war starter, but yes 123D is for NON commercial use, and indeed Autodesk will OWN your work.. they will probably sell all these assets one of these day...

Now.. about Acute3D, sure they have a superb technology.. sure it's 10x faster than Pscan, sure it's more accurate, sure it's more automatic and has multiple level of details... BUT... you have any idea how much it cost..?

First of all, you can't buy Smart3DCapture , only rent it... for 10k(euros) / year... so ... hehe..

I'd say for the price Pscan is terrific.. and I did some cool models with it.. notably the teapot on the Benchmark scene for Maxwell Render.. so it is totally usable..

Now as far as Lee Perry and his wonderful setup.. it is specialized for Human and maybe animals.. so IF Lee Perry was only doing dead objects, he could use just one Cam...

as far as I know, he would need his multi-cam setup even if he was using another photogrametry app...

my 02 ct...

f/
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: kris3d on September 11, 2012, 05:08:13 PM
I simply reply to this post.
Someone says that PhotoScan is much better than 123Dcatch
Someone should buy it.
Someone said it ?e123Dcatch technology review article. Due is a toy.

I am very disappointed with the quality of PhotoScan.
I bought a program for professional work.
I do not like to share models for autodesk

Working time is a drama, even on a very powerful computer processor 24.
It can be forgiven.
But your work is not acceptable.
One big mistake.

Sorry to those who like PhotoScan other,
but that's my opinion.
A review was based on tests


Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: Alexey Pasumansky on September 11, 2012, 05:21:11 PM
Hello kris3d,

Thank you for sharing the result comparison.

Currently we are processing the "Goddess" dataset.
Could you please specify if the original images were cropped or transformed since resolution and aspect ratio doesn't seem to be produced by common camera?

Is it possible to provide original image set?
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: kris3d on September 11, 2012, 05:30:51 PM
Hello


I tried a variety of ways.
Of the picture.
Photos trimmed.
Funniest pictures.
Photos corrected adobe lightroom.
75 photos
150 photos
Effects have always been weak.

The most annoying are the empty spaces.
The program fills them and makes a lot of mistakes.

Currently, she returned to Milan.
I have thousands of pictures, but I'm doing the first tests.
And the program again disappointing.
I do not want to share their work for autodesk, but I see no other option.
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: Wishgranter on September 11, 2012, 05:32:54 PM
Kris, if you use 123Cath, then you work for Autodesk and that for FREE - can understand this ??
what you produce will own AUTODESK :-) and your work will be sonner-or-later sell and profit from that will go for autodesk.....

Autodesk uses a CLOUD solution, probably over 32+ cores on that - they cost a LOT do you think that so a big player will offer thinkgs like this for free ?? so cannot compare it with own PC at work....
We are working on the net reconstruction solution that things get faster...

Without having the data at home to play with it, will say nothing to that - need RAWs..

You cannot accept arguments of few people here that have a much more knowlege than you, some work more than 10 years with Photogrametry and laser scanning area. You showing us just one example that with you knowlege of how it work create "bad" outputs we have tested a LOT of solutions and believme or not is the best PRICE/Performnace ratio that you can afford.

And last thing, photogrametry is not a life saver, it has its own limitaions like laser scanners do, so afther few years of work you wil get it and be happy that pscan can do what is do in proper hands....
That you cannot bring nice outputs depends on you, not so on sw side of the problem.....

im repeating to you DON?T use any post to clear distortion of lenses from photos that you will use in any Photogrametry solution........


This is my last comment on this thread, read it carefully ( not only me ) and try to become a better in photogrametry area...... to be a skeptist is good, because it can bring you to higher level of knowlege...

Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: kris3d on September 11, 2012, 06:07:02 PM
I'm talkin 'about the facts and show your work.
You sound like a haunted priest in the church there is one God and is called Allah.
I Yamantaka goddesses towers.
And it looks like that the Agisoft not go to paradise.
It's all about quality. I can pay $ 5,000 to the program will have a good quality.

What I will do with the fact that the model home will look like poop.
Maybe give autotesk models.
But they offer a program that does it well.
It can fly a helicopter 10 years and do ortomaps.
And you're a faithful follower of Agisoft.
But I deal with computer graphics for 20 years.
I know his stuff and I have no problems with his eyesight.
Customer did not care what the model.
What matters is the quality, and only on that you can earn.

If someone offended tone of my speech is very sorry.
I am frustrated with the effects of my scans.
And the idea that I have to give my work for autodesk ....

Here are the test files
as someone wants to improve the goddess.
https://www.wetransfer.com/dl/637nmcFf/00bd5bbc7b9221de908cd9ac4c8988b1f2b651ac1f97c859fa37307414a16c15cf99cbbe5218b3a (https://www.wetransfer.com/dl/637nmcFf/00bd5bbc7b9221de908cd9ac4c8988b1f2b651ac1f97c859fa37307414a16c15cf99cbbe5218b3a)
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: Wishgranter on September 11, 2012, 06:28:29 PM
Kris, im breaking my rule and that last time.

From what we have spoken over skype few days back, you have done this things to photos as im get it:

1. Lens distortion remove in (Lightroom )
2. Croped or resized image
3. other edits

if you understand Photogrametry then what you have done is against all BASIC principles of photogrametry...........


What i have wrote is that a lot of people have at least some degree knowlege of photogrametry, have read all that whitepapers that im linked to you - year of hardwork and probing under scientific conditions and they give me "basic" understanding what about is photogrametry what mathematic formulas and physic is involved in solving photogrametry... read it it can help you better understand pros and cons of that technology..

P.S. about autodesk, do you know what can expect from law if you use some intelectual property of other for own profit ??? read litle of what amount of money get sued for using - downloading MP3 or videos - autodesk WILL use law agaist you sooner or later.......  3D object are the next step..

HAWK :-)
 


Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: Infinite on September 11, 2012, 11:26:54 PM
Show me some good quality scans.
The only guy in the world to do something this program something good
This http://www.ir-ltd.net/why-why-upgrade-to-agisoft-pro-edition.
But this guy has invested hundreds of thousands, and scans improves in Zbrush.

In this forum, I see only the problems of users.
Where is the sense of the effects of gallery work! ?
Show me your scans, and I'll tell you what it's worth this program.
I say I'm not only show you the evidence.
Do you have pictures. You can compare them.

No I haven't spent $100,000's that's wrong..

To date I have spent a few $10,000's nothing on that scale. And I started out with 12 Cameras and got great results with a turntable and ONLY Agisoft. 12x 550D's = $6k (roughly)

But sure send me over a few $100,000's and I could build an incredible 4D 60fps full body system. It's just a matter of time and the only application capable to solve that type of data. Agisoft.

Agisot is incredible, simply because of price, quality and the customer support. Alexey and his team are incredible, willing, open, generous and innovative. So please don't be rude when posting here.  I will be purchasing my 2nd PRO license in the next few weeks (with another in a few months) just because I want to honor the hard work these guys put in, and because of the amount of work that I have received thanks to them.

Show some respect.

Your ornament you are trying to capture? There is a skill behind capturing something like that. A skill you seem to lack. Learn the basics first. Try a speckle pattern, experiment with different positions. There is an "art" to it. Be patient. You can't just get instant results, learn the craft. Invest time, live and breath it if you want to be good.

There are a few reasons why I don't use 123d Catch.
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: kris3d on September 12, 2012, 02:29:03 AM
Alexey and his team are incredible, willing, open, generous and innovative
a fully agree with this opinion.
I invested about $ 100 000 in RenderFarm, and a lot of time.
Maybe I'm not patient, for that check all the options.
I tested the program very hard.
I admire your results, you do the best scans I've seen in my life.
Please do not take my tests as an arrogant expression.
Wonder what 123D for doing the same set better.
You may need to use a special spell.
And then the program will work as expected.

do not give up :)
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: 3dprintergear on September 20, 2012, 03:42:14 AM
Well didn't mean to start an argument. But the discussion was enlightening none the less.

I have attempted a number of scans, but with less than acceptable results. I get the feeling producing a good scan is somewhat a black art.

I'll persevere and see how it goes.

Thanks for the info.

Regards
Jamie
www.3dprintergear.com.au
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: Wishgranter on September 20, 2012, 10:48:12 AM
Hello, as you read, a lot was writen and a few things were explained, kris started thinking how to improve his knowlege and etc. :-)

What sort of object you try to reconstruct ? try put some images or description that we get it and can help eventuely....
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: Mr_Curious on September 20, 2012, 01:52:36 PM
Show me some good quality scans.
The only guy in the world to do something this program something good
This http://www.ir-ltd.net/why-why-upgrade-to-agisoft-pro-edition.
But this guy has invested hundreds of thousands, and scans improves in Zbrush.

In this forum, I see only the problems of users.
Where is the sense of the effects of gallery work! ?
Show me your scans, and I'll tell you what it's worth this program.
I say I'm not only show you the evidence.
Do you have pictures. You can compare them.

No I haven't spent $100,000's that's wrong..

To date I have spent a few $10,000's nothing on that scale. And I started out with 12 Cameras and got great results with a turntable and ONLY Agisoft. 12x 550D's = $6k (roughly)




I would love to see some specific examples that you created using the 12 camera rig and turntable.  I don't doubt you for a moment, rather, I'm just curious to see what could be accomplished with such a setup.

Greetings,

Mr. Curious
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: Infinite on September 21, 2012, 12:49:41 PM
You should delve through my website, there is a host of information there documenting the research and findings over the last few years:

http://www.ir-ltd.net/360-degree-full-body-scanning

I used 16 in this example, because of 4 closeup Cameras for the face but it's still perfectly fine using 12 and then stitching the data together.
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: Mr_Curious on September 21, 2012, 03:41:52 PM
You should delve through my website, there is a host of information there documenting the research and findings over the last few years:

http://www.ir-ltd.net/360-degree-full-body-scanning

I used 16 in this example, because of 4 closeup Cameras for the face but it's still perfectly fine using 12 and then stitching the data together.

Wow, that's incredible.  Your work is amazing!

Thank you so much for sharing your experiments and knowledge, this is a real inspiration to me and I'm sure many others here.

Greetings,

Mr. Curious
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: kirk on September 26, 2012, 05:44:05 PM
my last commnet on this:
read carefuly what GeeVee wrote and im forget it to mention too:

However, do not forget that (as Wishgranter said), 123D it is NOT for commercial purposes and last time I checked (I think about one year ago) you transfer the copyright of your content to Autodesk.

do you know what that mean in real life ??????? do you know why they give it "FREE" ??

YOU give COPYRIGHT to AUTODESK, they are the OWNER of YOUR stuff !!!! if they want and they they WILL sooner or later sue YOU that you use THEIR DATA...

I am curious where did you read this.  I do not argue but from what I read a few days ago in their Terms of Service  http://sitesupport.123dapp.com/entries/20059427  point 3 "your content"
it looks like you give them copyright only if you decide to share/publish your content.  If not they just do not promise to keep it 100% secure.   At least it's what I understood from their legal language
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: Wishgranter on September 26, 2012, 06:28:11 PM
(i)  you automatically grant to us and our sub-licensees (and warrant that the licensor of such rights has expressly granted to us and our sub-licensees) the worldwide, perpetual, royalty-free, fully paid-up, irrevocable, non-exclusive, sublicensable (through multiple tiers) right and license to have Access to, store, display, reproduce, use, disclose, transmit, view, reproduce, modify, adapt, translate, publish, broadcast, perform and display (whether publicly or otherwise), distribute, re-distribute, transmit, save and use  Your Content (in whole or in part) for any reason and/or purpose (whether commercial or non-commercial) by any and all means in any and all media, forms, formats, platforms and technologies now known or hereafter devised, invented, developed or improved in connection with the Service, Autodesk Materials or our business generally.   
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: Infinite on September 26, 2012, 06:33:30 PM
(i)  you automatically grant to us and our sub-licensees (and warrant that the licensor of such rights has expressly granted to us and our sub-licensees) the worldwide, perpetual, royalty-free, fully paid-up, irrevocable, non-exclusive, sublicensable (through multiple tiers) right and license to have Access to, store, display, reproduce, use, disclose, transmit, view, reproduce, modify, adapt, translate, publish, broadcast, perform and display (whether publicly or otherwise), distribute, re-distribute, transmit, save and use  Your Content (in whole or in part) for any reason and/or purpose (whether commercial or non-commercial) by any and all means in any and all media, forms, formats, platforms and technologies now known or hereafter devised, invented, developed or improved in connection with the Service, Autodesk Materials or our business generally.

I think you also hand over rights to your Soul as well. This is why I prefer Agisoft  :D
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: kirk on September 26, 2012, 07:55:28 PM
(i)  you automatically grant to us and our sub-licensees (and warrant that the licensor of such rights has expressly granted to us and our sub-licensees) the worldwide, perpetual, royalty-free, fully paid-up, irrevocable, non-exclusive, sublicensable (through multiple tiers) right and license to have Access to, store, display, reproduce, use, disclose, transmit, view, reproduce, modify, adapt, translate, publish, broadcast, perform and display (whether publicly or otherwise), distribute, re-distribute, transmit, save and use  Your Content (in whole or in part) for any reason and/or purpose (whether commercial or non-commercial) by any and all means in any and all media, forms, formats, platforms and technologies now known or hereafter devised, invented, developed or improved in connection with the Service, Autodesk Materials or our business generally.

That quote is a part of a bigger statement


"(b)           Sharing Your Content.  The Service may permit or require you to share Your Content to one or more public area(s) designated for that purpose, including on our web site(s).  If that is the case, by uploading, posting, publishing, transmitting, displaying, distributing, emailing, saving,  sharing or otherwise transmitting or making available Your Content to a public area of the Service or through the Service to another public location:

(i)  you automatically grant to us and our sub-licensees (and warrant that the licensor of such rights has expressly granted to us and our sub-licensees) the worldwide, perpetual, royalty-free, fully paid-up, irrevocable, non-exclusive"   and so on.

If I am not wrong that part (i)  goes after "If that's the case" of sharing your content. Which you could not share I believe.


Later in paragraph  (c)  in case you don't want to share things


        " (c) Keeping Your Content Non-public.  The Service may also permit you to choose not to post or publish onto public area(s) designated for sharing (e.g., Your Content published into a private area on our web site(s) or, to the extent allowed by the Service, emailed to or Accessed by solely your authorized designees, or Your Content using our Software without posting or publishing onto a public area of the Service. In these situations, (i) we will not authorize Your Content to be shared with others publicly [although we cannot promise complete data  security (e.g., of cloud servers)]: (ii) you automatically grant to us and our sub-licensees (and warrant that the licensor of such rights has expressly granted to us and our sub-licensees) a perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, royalty-free, paid-up, worldwide, sublicensable (through multiple tiers) license to have Access to, store, display, reproduce, modify, use, disclose, distribute and transmit such Your Content for purposes of providing, maintaining, repairing, protecting, organizing and/or otherwise administering or providing to you products, services and/or features on the Service (e.g., allowing Your Content to be emailed to or Accessed by your authorized designees),to comply with applicable laws/regulations/legal proceedings, in the ordinary course of our (or our designated third parties’) providing, improving and/or modifying the Service or any of products and/or services, including  extracting, compiling, aggregating, synthesizing, using, and otherwise analyzing all or any portion of Your Content and information, and to disclose such Content and information and the results of any such analysis in aggregated form or any other form that does not specifically identify you unless emailed to or Accessed by your authorized designees or otherwise permitted by these Terms.  "

Still a bit confusing  but looks like they claim some rights only "for purposes of providing, maintaining, repairing etc"   
Although from my personal experience if any contract have something unclear it is always against you. They definitely might write it more straight.


Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: Wishgranter on September 26, 2012, 08:12:19 PM
kirk, do you have a idea how costly is to maintain service like this in a day - month  ?
 They buy a LOT of servers and give it for free ??
do you think that a so big player will give something for free to everyone  ???

An as mentioned the quality of the data can be used for home use, but NOT for profesional work. a interesant whitepaper will come out, they you will understand it better, im there under NDA, so cannot say anything except PSCAN is ..........  :-)

Show me at least 2 whitepapers that 123CATCH review on sientistic approarch..... have noone seen, why is that possible ?
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: kirk on September 26, 2012, 08:37:08 PM
kirk, do you have a idea how costly is to maintain service like this in a day - month  ?
 They buy a LOT of servers and give it for free ??
do you think that a so big player will give something for free to everyone  ???

This puzzles me too.   This and better texture quality/photo stitching are going to make me buying  Photoscan.  Just have some doubts that Autodesk doesn't allow to use 123 commercially. They tell you can on their forum. Who knows, perhaps they just want to make the whole idea of photogrammetry more popular.   
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: jedfrechette on September 26, 2012, 08:49:48 PM
kirk, do you have a idea how costly is to maintain service like this in a day - month  ?
 They buy a LOT of servers and give it for free ??
do you think that a so big player will give something for free to everyone  ???

I don't see how that is relevant, lots of companies provide costly services that they don't charge users for because they see other benefits from them.

I'm no lawyer, but kirk does appear to be correct that you are only licensing your content to Autodesk under certain circumstances. I certainly don't see anything in their TOS about assigning copyright to them.

An as mentioned the quality of the data can be used for home use, but NOT for profesional work. a interesant whitepaper will come out, they you will understand it better, im there under NDA, so cannot say anything except PSCAN is ..........  :-)

I'm looking forward to this. Will it be published in a peer-reviewed journal?

Show me at least 2 whitepapers that 123CATCH review on sientistic approarch..... have noone seen, why is that possible ?

Here are a number of papers, some of which directly compare PhotoScan and 123D Catch. WARNING: Search results provided by an expensive to operate "free" service.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=123d+catch
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: Wishgranter on September 26, 2012, 10:39:22 PM
1. Autodesk have aquired few firms in last 2-3 years, that what you get as 123CATCH is a toy, not for serious work (they have very interesant portfolio for photogrametry, but still not ready for PRO market and sure will not be free ) 
  - my own opinion, im could use it ( 123CATCH, Photomodeler Scanner )  but results are far from something useable, yes im do a very complicated stuff therefore im need a specialized tool like Pscan. As few other say, they use it on daily basis, on commercial work, and they are happy with that. If Pscan is something not for you - are you merely a hobbist then use 123 or what ever free stuff. but if want WORK, you need tools like PSCAN or PSCAN PRO, your clients will ask for things that free stuff canot give you.... And as was mentioned here, it exist few other solutions, but when you compare PRICE/PERFORMANCE you get that pscan is best here.....Photogrametry for stereopairs that have been aquired by autodesk cost 5.000 EUR + 500/EUR year subscription, no LITE version - without the GIS functions like PRO of Photoscan, so you could not do in it nothing except creating a view on that data, for all other you need external app - problems with workflow, conversions etc.
If 123 CATCH was so "perfect" do you think they would buy for heavy money firms in this area and then give it to clients for free ?????????? Propably as mentioned, they want give  people a toy, that people get in touch with photogrametry.......


2. Yes papers will be out, when cannot say. but have seen few things, and it say a LOT of what to choose. Is not in my power to say anything about it....

3. If you have time search PRECISE link to that, have searched, but nothing special, just that they use it, not the quality coparsion, if you know precise link, let us know.

4. Debating about what solution is better and what whorse can be discused, but what you do with that data ? personaly, im happy that PSCAN exist, if you not happy go and teach about photogrametry, then, just then is here place for discusion. If you go up and read, even the KRIS understand it that is not a TOY like 123. its need a lot of background info and tests for your pipeline, every use has its pros and cons, im workin with it 1,5 year, and now im can say im good in that......

5. is on the lawyers that they read it, but believe me, autodesk is not dumb, they know what they do..... 

HAWK...
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: jedfrechette on September 27, 2012, 12:12:15 AM
3. If you have time search PRECISE link to that, have searched, but nothing special, just that they use it, not the quality coparsion, if you know precise link, let us know.

How about the 5th link from the search I gave?

"3D Models from the Black Box: Investigating the Current State of Image-Based Modeling"
https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/courses/compsci715s2c/resources/relatedwork/ImageBasedModellingBenchmark/StateOfImageBasedModelling_WSCG2012_NguyenEtAl.pdf (https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/courses/compsci715s2c/resources/relatedwork/ImageBasedModellingBenchmark/StateOfImageBasedModelling_WSCG2012_NguyenEtAl.pdf)

It's a paper presented at this conference:

http://wscg.zcu.cz/wscg2012/Papers.htm (http://wscg.zcu.cz/wscg2012/Papers.htm)

It directly compares 123D Catch, PhotoScan, Hyper3D, and an in-house system. Although the quality assessment is qualitative, it nicely illustrates how the strengths and weakness of different algorithms are exposed by different datasets.


Note, there is no need to be so defensive. I'm not claiming 123D catch, or PhotoScan for that matter, is perfect. Clearly they can both outperform the other in specific cases. I just don't think it's useful to spread false information and dismiss either as a "toy" without presenting any data to support your position.
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: Wishgranter on September 27, 2012, 01:28:51 AM
No offense but...

hmm, this one IS a "scientific" but it seems that they don?t know a lot about photogrametry :-)

1. resampling of images is against basic principles, yes can be done in lower but its need to be shooted with setting in the responsible camera - half of the sensor resolution, quarter as a possibility
But have tested resamplig of data, and it could go from aprox 5-6 Mpix, under this the scene was junk.. original images were 18Mpix, im wotking sometimes with 7Mpix on BIG scenes.. ( they used aprox 3 mpix images...


2. the other thing is they used a small bird with mostly uniform AND glare background, and small resolution. it depend on structure of objects, thats mean is not enought points (features ) recognized =  high error on aligment, or just junk.. therefore is idel to use checkerboard, or something that give the eingine points-features on what it can do the align process ( basic of photogrametry too ) 
The bird was just on aprox 40 % of the images as far could recognize - too low !!! see other here how they shoot it for good results.........


 https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/courses/compsci715s2c/resources/relatedwork/ImageBasedModellingBenchmark/StateOfImageBasedModelling_WSCG2012_NguyenEtAl.pdf

3. If can find more, then put it here, all can learn something from it..

Better to see the whitepapers on agisoft wiki, how they compare it to laser scaner  or white/structured light solution....
Title: Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
Post by: marco82 on December 09, 2012, 02:26:06 PM
123D said:

This software is provided 'as-is', without any express or implied warranty.  In no event will the authors be held liable for any damages   arising from the use of this software.
 
Permission is granted to anyone to use this software for any purpose, including commercial applications, and to alter it and redistribute it freely, subject to the following restrictions:
 
  1. The origin of this software must not be misrepresented; you must not claim that you wrote the original software. If you use this software in a product, an acknowledgment in the product documentation would be appreciated but is not required.   2. Altered source versions must be plainly marked as such, and must not be misrepresented as being the original software.   3. This notice may not be removed or altered from any source distribution.