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Author Topic: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup  (Read 110904 times)

meshmaster

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Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2013, 09:19:11 PM »
Just so that people don't think I'm having a moan about the quality of the D3200 for no reason, let me show you an example image.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38398338/D3200/DSC_0001_DxO_18mm.jpg

This image was shot at F11, 125 sec, ISO 100, with the 18-55mm kit lens, the subject is 1 meter from the lens.

Ok, so this was shot at the 18mm extreme of the lens, so I would expect reduced quality... but this is really... well, poor.  Notice how soft the focus is at the center of the image... YIKES!

I consider this to be unacceptable.

Hopefully, a good prime lens will make an improvement!

Cheers,

Joe

aphextwin

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Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2013, 10:05:58 PM »
100% agree.. image-quality is very poor!

did you try the canon eos1100D with 35mm fixed lens?
This combo comes quite cheap and it can be synched with magic lantern, I guess.

meshmaster

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Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2013, 10:16:17 PM »
100% agree.. image-quality is very poor!

did you try the canon eos1100D with 35mm fixed lens?
This combo comes quite cheap and it can be synched with magic lantern, I guess.

I agree!

I've not tried the eos1100D but I have tested and made comparison with/against the EOS T2i, T3i, etc.  I've tested the Canons with kit lens 18-55 and the images are very good and with prime lenses they are pin sharp!

Whereas, with these D3200's I can't even manage to get the center of the image in proper focus... WTF?  :o

Hell, I've got some old Canon 40D's (only 10.1 megapixels) that produce better images with kit lenses  than these Nikon's do!

So, this is why I'm kicking up a fuss.  I'm hoping that some prime lens goodness will solve my problems.... only time will tell!

Cheers,

Joe




chadfx

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Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2013, 10:22:03 PM »
Wow, you are certainly not getting proper results from that lens and camera!

That lens is not crazy sharp, but it doesn't seem to be horrible either...certainly nowhere near as bad as what you are seeing.

http://www.photozone.de/nikon--nikkor-aps-c-lens-tests/632-nikkor18553556vr?start=1

Have you tried using manual focus and/or live view with contrast detection focusing? That 'should' give you the sharpest focusing results. At least to make sure it isn't the autofocus being weird with this lens or it's horribly front/back focusing.

Do you have more than one copy of the lens? Are they all this bad?

meshmaster

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Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2013, 10:29:53 PM »
Wow, you are certainly not getting proper results from that lens and camera!

That lens is not crazy sharp, but it doesn't seem to be horrible either...certainly nowhere near as bad as what you are seeing.

http://www.photozone.de/nikon--nikkor-aps-c-lens-tests/632-nikkor18553556vr?start=1

Have you tried using manual focus and/or live view with contrast detection focusing? That 'should' give you the sharpest focusing results. At least to make sure it isn't the autofocus being weird with this lens or it's horribly front/back focusing.

Do you have more than one copy of the lens? Are they all this bad?

Hi chadfx,

No, I've not had an opportunity to test with live view with contrast detection focusing, but it's next on my to-do list!

I do quite a collection of these lenses and they are all producing bad results, as are all the cameras.

I agree, this is bad and doesn't seem like it should be normal.

I am continuing to look into this matter and I will post more results as soon as I have them!

I'm open to any and all suggestions!

Cheers,

Joe

chadfx

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Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
« Reply #50 on: July 30, 2013, 10:54:20 PM »

I never really thought of contrast detection being a defacto standard for getting the most precise focus, but this guy seems to prove the point quite clearly (oh, another pun...sorry!)

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/autofocus-reality-part-1-center-point-single-shot-accuracy

and just adding a bit more review info: (from what I can tell, you are still not getting expected results from this
camera/lens combo. I would never say reviews are ever the final word...but your softness situation seems to go beyond review variations or other customer experiences. you can see that some areas both in front (like her sweater zipper) and in back (strands of hair) seem to be sharper than her face/eyes. it might be worth looking into a warranty/quality control issue if all of these cameras/lenses came from one batch at the factory.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d3200/16

Overall Image Quality

At this point in time the Nikon D3200 offers the highest sensor resolution in the entry-level bracket of the DSLR market. That said, you'll have to use high-quality glass to make the most of the sensor's capabilities. The 18-55mm kit lens, while performing perfectly well compared to its entry-level peers, simply cannot transmit the amount of detail the sensor is capable of capturing. Nikon told us some time ago that a large proportion of the buyers of their entry-level models never take the kit lens off their camera. If this is still true, it means that most D3200 users won’t get the most out of their camera. The Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 17-55mm f/2.8G is Nikon's flagship standard zoom for DX, but it's bulky and heavy, and at more than $1200 not an obvious choice for someone who is in the market for an entry-level DSLR. The Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 16-85mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR is slightly more attainable, but still retails for around $700.

Resolution and detail aside the Nikon D3200 offers good image quality, with reliable focusing and metering. Like we've seen on many previous Nikon models before there is a slight tendency to overexpose in bright contrasty conditions. In those situations it's worth dialing in 0.3 EV or so of negative exposure compensation, but even if you don't, it is usually possible to get at least some blown highlight detail back by applying negative digital exposure compensation in raw conversion (see above).

Image noise is not much of an issue at low ISOs. There are some traces of luminance noise in plain colored areas from ISO 200 upwards, but you'll have to look very closely to spot it. The detail-blurring effects of noise reduction start becoming visible at ISO 800 where some fine low-contrast detail is visibly being blurred. However, you'll have to view the image at 100% to notice. At sensitivities higher than ISO 1600 grainy luminance noise and the loss of low-contrast detail become more intrusive. Chroma noise is well under control up to very high ISOs but gets pretty intrusive at the two highest settings, which should be reserved for smaller output sizes.

Shooting raw files can, with the right conversion parameters, give you a small amount of additional detail. At higher ISOs it gives you the flexibility of applying customized noise reduction and generate better results than the out-of-camera JPEGs, as demonstrated in the sample shot above above.

Wishgranter

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Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2013, 11:22:17 PM »
Hi All for people interested to understand few things about cams, lenses and good quality of results  recommend to read carefully this two links..... 

1. http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/en/About/In-depth-measurements/Measurements/Sharpness

2. http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/en/Publications/DxOMark-Reviews/Looking-for-new-photo-gear-DxOMark-s-Perceptual-Megapixel-can-help-you

After you understand the stuff behind it, you can SAFELY choose proper lens for your cameras  8)

The Perceptual MPix measure confirms certain rules of thumb such as “a 12 MPix full-format camera is sharper than an 18 MPix APS,

« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 11:27:52 PM by Wishgranter »
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meshmaster

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Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
« Reply #52 on: July 30, 2013, 11:41:58 PM »

Have you tried using manual focus and/or live view with contrast detection focusing? That 'should' give you the sharpest focusing results. At least to make sure it isn't the autofocus being weird with this lens or it's horribly front/back focusing.



Here is the result of focusing using live view... not a great deal of change:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38398338/D3200/DSC_0001_DxO_18mm_b.jpg

Cheers,

Joe

aphextwin

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Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
« Reply #53 on: July 31, 2013, 12:04:48 AM »
Hi All for people interested to understand few things about cams, lenses and good quality of results  recommend to read carefully this two links..... 

1. http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/en/About/In-depth-measurements/Measurements/Sharpness

2. http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/en/Publications/DxOMark-Reviews/Looking-for-new-photo-gear-DxOMark-s-Perceptual-Megapixel-can-help-you

After you understand the stuff behind it, you can SAFELY choose proper lens for your cameras  8)

The Perceptual MPix measure confirms certain rules of thumb such as “a 12 MPix full-format camera is sharper than an 18 MPix APS,

and the prize is 'sharper', too ;) if you need i.e. 18 cameras for a multi camera rig this is a quite important point. btw aps sensors have less requirements for lenses as they don't use a smaller part of the lens. imho the eos 1100D with a 35mm fixed zoom lens does a good job concerning sharpness, vignetting etc and the costs. honestly, for SfM I wouldn't use zoom lenses at all. But small sensors are not a bad idea in every way as they deliver 'better' depth of field at smaller apertures so you can take a shorter shuttertime, so a good (!) compact camera (like ricoh with fixed zoom lens) can get into consideration too.
what I want to point out is that this topic is not binary (good camera/bad camera) ;)

Concerning the overall signal/noise ratio, full frame is clearly the best, but I guess this point is clear...
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 12:20:07 AM by aphextwin »

chadfx

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Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
« Reply #54 on: July 31, 2013, 12:29:41 AM »
Quote
what I want to point out is that this topic is not binary (good camera/bad camera) ;)

excellent point, Aphex...there are many options and variables out there.

have many people tried using micro4/3 cameras? their smaller sensor delivers even better depth of field coverage and the latest sensors are pretty decent, and they have some nice sharp prime lenses available

remote control options are fairly slim I believe, though...

Andrew

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Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
« Reply #55 on: July 31, 2013, 02:12:22 PM »
A while ago, when I studied resolution charts at dxomark website, high f-stop seemed to be lens equalizer - pro lens would peform infinitely better at f4-8, but light diffraction at f11 and up seemed to degrade image quality to comparable levels with cheap lens.

Can anyone share their experience, or better yet, share comparison pics of cheap and good glass at higher fstop?

meshmaster

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Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
« Reply #56 on: July 31, 2013, 03:36:30 PM »
Hello,

Ok, so you've got to see this:

Right, so here was the image from the D3200:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38398338/D3200/DSC_0001_DxO_18mm_b.jpg


Now see this.... here is an image from my Canon T2i https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38398338/D3200/IMG_3728.jpg

Ok, this image was shot with the Canon 18-55mm Kit Lens, 1/125 sec, F11.... in other words, the SAME settings that were used with the Nikon D3200.

Both were shot at exactly 1 meter from the subject.

Both were taken using inexpensive kit lenses, yet look, the image from the Canon is acceptable and what I would expect, whereas the image from the Nikon D3200 is of absolutely hideous quality.

So, I really have a difficult time accepting that this issue is just simply one of poor glass.

I've got 8 Nikon D3200's, I've tested each of them, none seem capable of producing a sharp, in-focus image.

Something is very, very, wrong.

Cheers,

Joe

Infinite

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Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
« Reply #57 on: July 31, 2013, 04:34:55 PM »
Hello,

Ok, so you've got to see this:

Right, so here was the image from the D3200:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38398338/D3200/DSC_0001_DxO_18mm_b.jpg


Now see this.... here is an image from my Canon T2i https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38398338/D3200/IMG_3728.jpg

Ok, this image was shot with the Canon 18-55mm Kit Lens, 1/125 sec, F11.... in other words, the SAME settings that were used with the Nikon D3200.

Both were shot at exactly 1 meter from the subject.

Both were taken using inexpensive kit lenses, yet look, the image from the Canon is acceptable and what I would expect, whereas the image from the Nikon D3200 is of absolutely hideous quality.

So, I really have a difficult time accepting that this issue is just simply one of poor glass.

I've got 8 Nikon D3200's, I've tested each of them, none seem capable of producing a sharp, in-focus image.

Something is very, very, wrong.

Cheers,

Joe

Quite incredible. I haven't posted much here because I'm seeing exactly the same thing I saw a few months ago with my D800's and D3200's. Using Kit as well as Prime lenses. These aren't individual defects but across a range of 8-24x cameras. Something most 'professionals' don't have the chance to test or compare against. Who in their right might have multiple D800's or MKII's!!

I get the same issues with the D800's combined with oil spots on the sensor.

I have a sneaking suspicion (I hate to rate one make over another) but if I switch to Canon MKII or MKIII's the results will be as good as the 600D's, ultra sharp with no damn processing we shouldn't have to post-process, as it has zero effect in Agisoft anyway. I can confirm there is zero difference shooting RAW or Jpeg when processing in Agisoft. ZERO! apart from an exponential increase in processing times. RAW is useful for extra bit depth in texture output only. Not build.

There is just something about Canon's image output that is better than Nikon's. Regardless of all the "industry standard tests" out there. In a proper multi-cam studio environment with applicable bounced flash lighting, the defects in the Nikon cameras are apparent. I have already done all the necessary tests here, lens swaps, body types including D7100 as well.

My conclusion was Canon just produce better results. Sadly I can't test with MKII or III yet but I hope to. The Canon 600D's even though not full frame or higher MP produce sharp images. Without RAW or post-processing.

Thanks for your experiments Joe, it has confirmed my research further. Expensive research (as you know!) I might add  :-[

Lee

PS. The annoying thing is the Nikon's build and design quality far exceed Canon's. A good example is the power / battery hatch location!!!!!!
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 04:44:38 PM by Infinite »
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Infinite

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Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
« Reply #58 on: July 31, 2013, 04:43:18 PM »
A while ago, when I studied resolution charts at dxomark website, high f-stop seemed to be lens equalizer - pro lens would peform infinitely better at f4-8, but light diffraction at f11 and up seemed to degrade image quality to comparable levels with cheap lens.

Can anyone share their experience, or better yet, share comparison pics of cheap and good glass at higher fstop?

I think this is true for full frame and higher MP. But anything below f8 is useless for full body or face scanning as the focus range is so small. Anything blurred will create highly noisy scan output  :-[
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meshmaster

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Re: Most reasonable DSLR for multi-cam face capture setup
« Reply #59 on: July 31, 2013, 04:43:57 PM »
Hi Lee,

Thanks for your input.

It gives me some comfort to know that I am not the only one who is seeing this... I was starting to feel as if I was going completely bonkers!

Cheers M8,

Joe