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Author Topic: why is my point and shoot making batter captures than a DSLR  (Read 31888 times)

morganW

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I have been trying to get the perfect recipe for getting scans of small objects (army men) my 10 mega pixel powershot has done a pretty good job, BUT it is far better than my new Nikon d3200 with an FX macro lens. I cant figure out what I am doing wrong. I am shooting at F20 and full resolution. The pictures look great but the captures have all kinds of holes and noise on the surface. I was shooting in the same lighting conditions and same object. Any thoughts or advise is very appreciated.

Alexey Pasumansky

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Re: why is my point and shoot making batter captures than a DSLR
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2014, 11:41:59 PM »
Hello morganW,

Maybe you can post a couple of full-resolution images from the both sets? Please also specify whether the reconstruction settings were the same (chunk info from both projects will be informative).
Best regards,
Alexey Pasumansky,
Agisoft LLC

morganW

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Re: why is my point and shoot making batter captures than a DSLR
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2014, 12:53:02 AM »
Sounds good, the point and shoot chunk: 139 cameras, dense cloud 4332115 points, 10115174 faces
the DSLR chunk: 133 cameras, 9901755 dense cloud , 1982400 faces

morganW

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Re: why is my point and shoot making batter captures than a DSLR
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2014, 12:57:49 AM »
the DSLR

morganW

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Re: why is my point and shoot making batter captures than a DSLR
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2014, 12:59:15 AM »
The Point and shoot, both images were reduced in resolution due to the limits of the forum

vfxman222

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Re: why is my point and shoot making batter captures than a DSLR
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2014, 02:03:53 AM »
There are a wide number of variables that could cause differences in quality.
1) The location of each captured image is probably not identical between PS and DSLR, therefore resulting in different initial image data for Photoscan to process. This is most likely the main difference.

2) The quantity of images captured. 139 vs 133, also goes back to one set not having the same pixel information as the other.

3) The sensor types and how they capture pixel color information can play a factor.

4) Camera settings, like ISO, aperture, and shutter speed. Can all play a factor in how data is captured.

5) Each camera can reduce and record image data differently to a memory card.

There are many more factors, but what it really boils down to is that you:

- Capture images with a wide depth of field to keep as much of your subject in sharp focus as possible.
- Stereo capture is helpful for the software, so with a single camera you wanna keep each image you shoot within a certain distance of each other. Essentially to where you can take any two photos that are next to each other and easily make a stereo image from it. This require consistent camera location around your subject and will vary depending on the size of your subject.
- Keeping the lowest ISO possible will help reduced grain in the image. The less the grain the better the pixel information for the software.
- Tracking is a HUGE part of it too. If your subject has a smooth, non-detailed surface, then the software has nothing to match in each image no matter how high the resolution. Having some kind of unique texture, be it a printed pattern or in your case a rough material will help in solving the cameras. Ideally having specific markers in the scene work best.
- Coverage, coverage, coverage. This kinda goes back to the stereo pair note above, but making sure as many hidden areas of your subject are captured will help with having a full complete solved surface.
- Avoid macro lenses if possible. They completely destroy any way of getting wide depth of field. It usually chokes it to razor thin space and forces too high of an aperture. High apertures usually above f8-f11 will actually cause diffraction and start softening the image. Sharpness is what you need for the details.

For your two sample images, I can see what looks to be a heavier noise pattern on the DSLR camera. This may also just be the forum compressing the image. What where the camera settings and resolutions used for both capture sessions?
--
David Torno

Marcel

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Re: why is my point and shoot making batter captures than a DSLR
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2014, 02:17:37 AM »
Can you upload two original source shots to Dropbox or another service?

You need to look at the quality of the photos at the pixel level, a version that is downscaled to 800x600 doesn't show potential problems.

One issue could be the aperture. I know you want to get as deep a depth of field as possible, but F20 blurs your images because of a phenomenon called diffraction.  Normally I would not mention diffraction as a problem, but at F20 it definitely can be. Try F11 or F13 instead.

The point and shoot has a wider depth of field because of its smaller sensor, but I don't think that's the issue here. Please show us two original sized source photos and we can tell more.

Other questions:

What ISO are you using?
Do you use a remote release (or press the shutter button with your finger)
How do you focus?

chadfx

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Re: why is my point and shoot making batter captures than a DSLR
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2014, 02:19:39 AM »
Morgan, are you sure those two images match their captions? I would bet that the photo on the bottom is from the DSLR, as it has a shallower depth of field (focus is not sharp front to back) due to the much larger sensor of the camera as compared to the small point and shoot. Any part of the image that is out of focus or otherwise unsharp will cause problems for Photoscan to solve correctly. (no points to lock onto when it's all blurry)

Try using a smaller aperture (f16 or f22) and use a tripod (due to the resulting slow shutter speed). You hopefully should see better sharpness across your object in the resulting photos.

Cheers, -Chad

ozbigben

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Re: why is my point and shoot making batter captures than a DSLR
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2014, 04:56:44 AM »
It would be helpful to see the full resolution images if you can post them somewhere else and link to them here, or post a 1:1 crop of the object and some background.  The DSLR image has a greater depth of field but it also looks like there's more ISO noise which could be creating false points.  Apart from the the shooting suggestions others have already mentioned you may find refining the sparse point cloud may help.

View the sparse cloud
Edit > Gradual selction
With Reprojection error selected as the criterion, move the slider down to give a level of 1 and press OK
Delete the points
Do another gradual selection using Reconstruction uncertainty as the criterion and set a level of 100
Delete the points
Generate a dense point cloud

The other thing I can suggest is having the object on a flat table rather than trying to isolate it. I usually sit objects on something that will raise them sightly above the table top to make it a little easier to remove the table. Have a detailed background on the table (newspaper is good). This provides more information for PS to reconstuct the 3D scene using points closer to the camera.  The way you have your object set up it's possible that you are getting more points in the background, however these will tend to have higher error values which in turn will decrease the accuracy of the resulting dense cloud. Having more points in the vicinity of the object will increase the accuracy.

Here's a frame from each of 3 captures I recently did testing an iphone as a camera. After generating the dense point cloud it's relatively easy to remove any unwanted points before creating a mesh.

ozbigben

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Re: why is my point and shoot making batter captures than a DSLR
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2014, 05:25:42 AM »
OK, saw this in a different thread ;)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/68078527/DSC_0019.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/68078527/DSC_0041.JPG
The top 2 are DSLR
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/68078527/IMG_4920.JPG


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/68078527/IMG_4921.JPG

I definitely use a tripod with a self timer. Thanks again for all the response, I am desperate to get it right! And BTW, agisoft software is a life changing event for me!

Nikon D3200, 1/60 @ f20, 6400ISO, 60mm, Delay, AUTO ISO
The images look a little soft, particularly DSC_0019

Canon Powerdhot SD1200, 1/15 @f2.8, 80 ISO, 6.2mm, macro mode, self timer 2s

So as people have suggested here, switch to manual and drop the ISO. Even back to 400 will give you a much better image.  I'd probably open up to f11 as well. f20 seems to be killing the sharpness which could also be bringing the noise more into play. If you switch to portrait rather than landscape you can fill the frame a bit more as well.

morganW

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Re: why is my point and shoot making batter captures than a DSLR
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2014, 08:38:52 AM »
oops, I posted this right as a house party was starting, and accidentally posted into the wrong forum:)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/68078527/DSC_0019.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/68078527/DSC_0041.JPG
The top 2 are DSLR
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/68078527/IMG_4920.JPG


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/68078527/IMG_4921.JPG

I definitely use a tripod with a self timer. Thanks again for all the response, I am desperate to get it right! And BTW, agisoft software is a life changing event for me!

morganW

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Re: why is my point and shoot making batter captures than a DSLR
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2014, 08:54:15 AM »
@Chadfx, the labeling should be correct; the "IMG_"  is from my point and shoot and the "DSC_" is from my new DSLR

ozbigben

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Re: why is my point and shoot making batter captures than a DSLR
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2014, 09:38:44 AM »
@Chadfx, the labeling should be correct; the "IMG_"  is from my point and shoot and the "DSC_" is from my new DSLR
I'm guessing chadfx based that on the image quality. I thought the same thing but there was no metadata in the smaller images to confirm.  The different combinations of camera settings made your point and shoot images better than your DSLR images.

Marcel

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Re: why is my point and shoot making batter captures than a DSLR
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2014, 05:05:17 PM »
Thanks for uploading the source photos. The DSLR photos are blurry, but it's hard to say if it is because diffraction (the aperture being set at f20) or misfocus. My guess is diffraction, because if it was misfocus ther would be a zone of sharpness at the base of the figure (which sticks out more to the front and back).

My advice would be:

- shoot at ISO100 and aperture f11 to f13
- manual focus using Live View (so you can set focus perfectly)
- photograph in portrait mode as somebody already suggested. You want the figure filling your photo.
- do some test shots and study them in Photoshop at the pixel level to make sure they are completely sharp and noise free

In some cases you simply cannot get the whole object in focus, especially when you are doing extreme closeups. An option is to use focus stacking (with a program like Helicon Focus). This is a lot of extra work, but it does give perfect results.

morganW

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Re: why is my point and shoot making batter captures than a DSLR
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2014, 07:00:01 PM »
Great advice everyone. I just bought Helcion focus stack software and will try implementing it. I will update the thread once I apply the feedback.