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Author Topic: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie  (Read 58230 times)

gEEvEE

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2012, 01:07:26 AM »
Dear Kris, dear Wishgranter,

Please, let us not start a battle here.

First of all, before people start to blame me, I wrote a lot of papers on PhotoScan but also looked at (as far as I see it) almost all other SfM application out there.

I have to agree with both of you. Kris, sure, if 123D Catch it is free, why would one not use it, right? The results are good for a free program, sometimes VERY good as you show yourself. Do you know why? Because the running engine at the SfM stage is from Capture3D: http://www.acute3d.com/
These guys make amazing software but – at least the last time I checked – it is not affordable for an individual or small company (I thought prices started at € 25 000 a few months ago).  That is why 123D catch is often so good with organic objects such as your subjects for which – sometimes – the PhotoScan might look inferior. I say might, because I do not know how your PhotoScan workflow is nor if you selected all parameters correctly. Anyhow, let us agree that 123D catch might in some instances deliver better results.

On the other hand, PhotoScan shines when it comes to aerial work and – do not get me wrong – creates some very good models of these organic small artefacts as well. Of course, why would you pay if you can get it for free (with a result sometimes surpassing the payware)? Well, if it works for you and your aims, stick to 123D Catch.

However, do not forget that (as Wishgranter said), 123D it is NOT for commercial purposes and last time I checked (I think about one year ago) you transfer the copyright of your content to Autodesk.
Besides, PhotoScan is THE application when it comes to one package for an integrated workflow. You can have many other free solutions (based on bundler or PhotoSnyth) and these also work reasonably well (check also VisualSfM), but they do not give you:

  • the integrated environment of PhotoScan in which you can almost perform all necessary operations to get a very high 3D model (alignment, dense meshing, texturing, georeferencing, decimating etc.)
  • the user-friendliness and robustness of PhotoScan. Believe me, I tested it during two years for almost every day.
  • the dense meshing is in most instances unsurpassed. As said, I tried many datasets in various programs. In cases most other software would create gaps, PhotoScan nicely created the 3D geometry.
  • the interactivity PhotoScan offers. This is PhotoScan’s strength concerning me: you can realign badly aligned images, put GCPs for georeferencing or aligning difficult images that not aligned initially, textures are great (best of all applications, and you can also scale and manipulate them in many ways), you can export and clean the sparse point cloud, there are optimisation steps no single other software has, camera calibrations can be imported, it is back-up by free calibration software, supports 4D, etc. etc.

So in the end, it all comes down to what you want and need. Most people in this forum are from a photogrammetry background and like to work with aerials. Besides, the support of the PhotoScan people is top-notch: you know they will be there to answer all your questions and they will also continuously improve their software. Most importantly: you will always know what happens whit your data and have the ownership of everything you use or create!

Have a good evening,

Geert

Wishgranter

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2012, 10:58:34 AM »
Good morning to all.
GeeVee. thanx for sharing this in-depht going knowlege and your insight in problematic......


 
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kris3d

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2012, 11:21:04 AM »
Show me some good quality scans.
The only guy in the world to do something this program something good
This http://www.ir-ltd.net/why-why-upgrade-to-agisoft-pro-edition.
But this guy has invested hundreds of thousands, and scans improves in Zbrush.

In this forum, I see only the problems of users.
Where is the sense of the effects of gallery work! ?
Show me your scans, and I'll tell you what it's worth this program.
I say I'm not only show you the evidence.
Do you have pictures. You can compare them.

Wishgranter

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2012, 11:44:31 AM »
my last commnet on this:
read carefuly what GeeVee wrote and im forget it to mention too:

However, do not forget that (as Wishgranter said), 123D it is NOT for commercial purposes and last time I checked (I think about one year ago) you transfer the copyright of your content to Autodesk.

do you know what that mean in real life ??????? do you know why they give it "FREE" ??

YOU give COPYRIGHT to AUTODESK, they are the OWNER of YOUR stuff !!!! if they want and they they WILL sooner or later sue YOU that you use THEIR DATA...
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FoodMan

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2012, 04:19:16 PM »
well no war starter, but yes 123D is for NON commercial use, and indeed Autodesk will OWN your work.. they will probably sell all these assets one of these day...

Now.. about Acute3D, sure they have a superb technology.. sure it's 10x faster than Pscan, sure it's more accurate, sure it's more automatic and has multiple level of details... BUT... you have any idea how much it cost..?

First of all, you can't buy Smart3DCapture , only rent it... for 10k(euros) / year... so ... hehe..

I'd say for the price Pscan is terrific.. and I did some cool models with it.. notably the teapot on the Benchmark scene for Maxwell Render.. so it is totally usable..

Now as far as Lee Perry and his wonderful setup.. it is specialized for Human and maybe animals.. so IF Lee Perry was only doing dead objects, he could use just one Cam...

as far as I know, he would need his multi-cam setup even if he was using another photogrametry app...

my 02 ct...

f/

kris3d

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2012, 05:08:13 PM »
I simply reply to this post.
Someone says that PhotoScan is much better than 123Dcatch
Someone should buy it.
Someone said it ?e123Dcatch technology review article. Due is a toy.

I am very disappointed with the quality of PhotoScan.
I bought a program for professional work.
I do not like to share models for autodesk

Working time is a drama, even on a very powerful computer processor 24.
It can be forgiven.
But your work is not acceptable.
One big mistake.

Sorry to those who like PhotoScan other,
but that's my opinion.
A review was based on tests



Alexey Pasumansky

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2012, 05:21:11 PM »
Hello kris3d,

Thank you for sharing the result comparison.

Currently we are processing the "Goddess" dataset.
Could you please specify if the original images were cropped or transformed since resolution and aspect ratio doesn't seem to be produced by common camera?

Is it possible to provide original image set?
Best regards,
Alexey Pasumansky,
Agisoft LLC

kris3d

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2012, 05:30:51 PM »
Hello


I tried a variety of ways.
Of the picture.
Photos trimmed.
Funniest pictures.
Photos corrected adobe lightroom.
75 photos
150 photos
Effects have always been weak.

The most annoying are the empty spaces.
The program fills them and makes a lot of mistakes.

Currently, she returned to Milan.
I have thousands of pictures, but I'm doing the first tests.
And the program again disappointing.
I do not want to share their work for autodesk, but I see no other option.

Wishgranter

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2012, 05:32:54 PM »
Kris, if you use 123Cath, then you work for Autodesk and that for FREE - can understand this ??
what you produce will own AUTODESK :-) and your work will be sonner-or-later sell and profit from that will go for autodesk.....

Autodesk uses a CLOUD solution, probably over 32+ cores on that - they cost a LOT do you think that so a big player will offer thinkgs like this for free ?? so cannot compare it with own PC at work....
We are working on the net reconstruction solution that things get faster...

Without having the data at home to play with it, will say nothing to that - need RAWs..

You cannot accept arguments of few people here that have a much more knowlege than you, some work more than 10 years with Photogrametry and laser scanning area. You showing us just one example that with you knowlege of how it work create "bad" outputs we have tested a LOT of solutions and believme or not is the best PRICE/Performnace ratio that you can afford.

And last thing, photogrametry is not a life saver, it has its own limitaions like laser scanners do, so afther few years of work you wil get it and be happy that pscan can do what is do in proper hands....
That you cannot bring nice outputs depends on you, not so on sw side of the problem.....

im repeating to you DON?T use any post to clear distortion of lenses from photos that you will use in any Photogrametry solution........


This is my last comment on this thread, read it carefully ( not only me ) and try to become a better in photogrametry area...... to be a skeptist is good, because it can bring you to higher level of knowlege...

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kris3d

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2012, 06:07:02 PM »
I'm talkin 'about the facts and show your work.
You sound like a haunted priest in the church there is one God and is called Allah.
I Yamantaka goddesses towers.
And it looks like that the Agisoft not go to paradise.
It's all about quality. I can pay $ 5,000 to the program will have a good quality.

What I will do with the fact that the model home will look like poop.
Maybe give autotesk models.
But they offer a program that does it well.
It can fly a helicopter 10 years and do ortomaps.
And you're a faithful follower of Agisoft.
But I deal with computer graphics for 20 years.
I know his stuff and I have no problems with his eyesight.
Customer did not care what the model.
What matters is the quality, and only on that you can earn.

If someone offended tone of my speech is very sorry.
I am frustrated with the effects of my scans.
And the idea that I have to give my work for autodesk ....

Here are the test files
as someone wants to improve the goddess.
https://www.wetransfer.com/dl/637nmcFf/00bd5bbc7b9221de908cd9ac4c8988b1f2b651ac1f97c859fa37307414a16c15cf99cbbe5218b3a

Wishgranter

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2012, 06:28:29 PM »
Kris, im breaking my rule and that last time.

From what we have spoken over skype few days back, you have done this things to photos as im get it:

1. Lens distortion remove in (Lightroom )
2. Croped or resized image
3. other edits

if you understand Photogrametry then what you have done is against all BASIC principles of photogrametry...........


What i have wrote is that a lot of people have at least some degree knowlege of photogrametry, have read all that whitepapers that im linked to you - year of hardwork and probing under scientific conditions and they give me "basic" understanding what about is photogrametry what mathematic formulas and physic is involved in solving photogrametry... read it it can help you better understand pros and cons of that technology..

P.S. about autodesk, do you know what can expect from law if you use some intelectual property of other for own profit ??? read litle of what amount of money get sued for using - downloading MP3 or videos - autodesk WILL use law agaist you sooner or later.......  3D object are the next step..

HAWK :-)
 


« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 06:31:44 PM by Wishgranter »
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Infinite

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2012, 11:26:54 PM »
Show me some good quality scans.
The only guy in the world to do something this program something good
This http://www.ir-ltd.net/why-why-upgrade-to-agisoft-pro-edition.
But this guy has invested hundreds of thousands, and scans improves in Zbrush.

In this forum, I see only the problems of users.
Where is the sense of the effects of gallery work! ?
Show me your scans, and I'll tell you what it's worth this program.
I say I'm not only show you the evidence.
Do you have pictures. You can compare them.

No I haven't spent $100,000's that's wrong..

To date I have spent a few $10,000's nothing on that scale. And I started out with 12 Cameras and got great results with a turntable and ONLY Agisoft. 12x 550D's = $6k (roughly)

But sure send me over a few $100,000's and I could build an incredible 4D 60fps full body system. It's just a matter of time and the only application capable to solve that type of data. Agisoft.

Agisot is incredible, simply because of price, quality and the customer support. Alexey and his team are incredible, willing, open, generous and innovative. So please don't be rude when posting here.  I will be purchasing my 2nd PRO license in the next few weeks (with another in a few months) just because I want to honor the hard work these guys put in, and because of the amount of work that I have received thanks to them.

Show some respect.

Your ornament you are trying to capture? There is a skill behind capturing something like that. A skill you seem to lack. Learn the basics first. Try a speckle pattern, experiment with different positions. There is an "art" to it. Be patient. You can't just get instant results, learn the craft. Invest time, live and breath it if you want to be good.

There are a few reasons why I don't use 123d Catch.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 11:32:45 PM by Infinite »
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kris3d

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2012, 02:29:03 AM »
Alexey and his team are incredible, willing, open, generous and innovative
a fully agree with this opinion.
I invested about $ 100 000 in RenderFarm, and a lot of time.
Maybe I'm not patient, for that check all the options.
I tested the program very hard.
I admire your results, you do the best scans I've seen in my life.
Please do not take my tests as an arrogant expression.
Wonder what 123D for doing the same set better.
You may need to use a special spell.
And then the program will work as expected.

do not give up :)

3dprintergear

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2012, 03:42:14 AM »
Well didn't mean to start an argument. But the discussion was enlightening none the less.

I have attempted a number of scans, but with less than acceptable results. I get the feeling producing a good scan is somewhat a black art.

I'll persevere and see how it goes.

Thanks for the info.

Regards
Jamie
www.3dprintergear.com.au

Wishgranter

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2012, 10:48:12 AM »
Hello, as you read, a lot was writen and a few things were explained, kris started thinking how to improve his knowlege and etc. :-)

What sort of object you try to reconstruct ? try put some images or description that we get it and can help eventuely....
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