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Author Topic: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie  (Read 57784 times)

Mr_Curious

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2012, 01:52:36 PM »
Show me some good quality scans.
The only guy in the world to do something this program something good
This http://www.ir-ltd.net/why-why-upgrade-to-agisoft-pro-edition.
But this guy has invested hundreds of thousands, and scans improves in Zbrush.

In this forum, I see only the problems of users.
Where is the sense of the effects of gallery work! ?
Show me your scans, and I'll tell you what it's worth this program.
I say I'm not only show you the evidence.
Do you have pictures. You can compare them.

No I haven't spent $100,000's that's wrong..

To date I have spent a few $10,000's nothing on that scale. And I started out with 12 Cameras and got great results with a turntable and ONLY Agisoft. 12x 550D's = $6k (roughly)




I would love to see some specific examples that you created using the 12 camera rig and turntable.  I don't doubt you for a moment, rather, I'm just curious to see what could be accomplished with such a setup.

Greetings,

Mr. Curious

Infinite

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2012, 12:49:41 PM »
You should delve through my website, there is a host of information there documenting the research and findings over the last few years:

http://www.ir-ltd.net/360-degree-full-body-scanning

I used 16 in this example, because of 4 closeup Cameras for the face but it's still perfectly fine using 12 and then stitching the data together.
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Mr_Curious

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2012, 03:41:52 PM »
You should delve through my website, there is a host of information there documenting the research and findings over the last few years:

http://www.ir-ltd.net/360-degree-full-body-scanning

I used 16 in this example, because of 4 closeup Cameras for the face but it's still perfectly fine using 12 and then stitching the data together.

Wow, that's incredible.  Your work is amazing!

Thank you so much for sharing your experiments and knowledge, this is a real inspiration to me and I'm sure many others here.

Greetings,

Mr. Curious

kirk

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2012, 05:44:05 PM »
my last commnet on this:
read carefuly what GeeVee wrote and im forget it to mention too:

However, do not forget that (as Wishgranter said), 123D it is NOT for commercial purposes and last time I checked (I think about one year ago) you transfer the copyright of your content to Autodesk.

do you know what that mean in real life ??????? do you know why they give it "FREE" ??

YOU give COPYRIGHT to AUTODESK, they are the OWNER of YOUR stuff !!!! if they want and they they WILL sooner or later sue YOU that you use THEIR DATA...

I am curious where did you read this.  I do not argue but from what I read a few days ago in their Terms of Service  http://sitesupport.123dapp.com/entries/20059427  point 3 "your content"
it looks like you give them copyright only if you decide to share/publish your content.  If not they just do not promise to keep it 100% secure.   At least it's what I understood from their legal language

Wishgranter

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2012, 06:28:11 PM »
(i)  you automatically grant to us and our sub-licensees (and warrant that the licensor of such rights has expressly granted to us and our sub-licensees) the worldwide, perpetual, royalty-free, fully paid-up, irrevocable, non-exclusive, sublicensable (through multiple tiers) right and license to have Access to, store, display, reproduce, use, disclose, transmit, view, reproduce, modify, adapt, translate, publish, broadcast, perform and display (whether publicly or otherwise), distribute, re-distribute, transmit, save and use  Your Content (in whole or in part) for any reason and/or purpose (whether commercial or non-commercial) by any and all means in any and all media, forms, formats, platforms and technologies now known or hereafter devised, invented, developed or improved in connection with the Service, Autodesk Materials or our business generally.   
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Infinite

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2012, 06:33:30 PM »
(i)  you automatically grant to us and our sub-licensees (and warrant that the licensor of such rights has expressly granted to us and our sub-licensees) the worldwide, perpetual, royalty-free, fully paid-up, irrevocable, non-exclusive, sublicensable (through multiple tiers) right and license to have Access to, store, display, reproduce, use, disclose, transmit, view, reproduce, modify, adapt, translate, publish, broadcast, perform and display (whether publicly or otherwise), distribute, re-distribute, transmit, save and use  Your Content (in whole or in part) for any reason and/or purpose (whether commercial or non-commercial) by any and all means in any and all media, forms, formats, platforms and technologies now known or hereafter devised, invented, developed or improved in connection with the Service, Autodesk Materials or our business generally.

I think you also hand over rights to your Soul as well. This is why I prefer Agisoft  :D
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kirk

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2012, 07:55:28 PM »
(i)  you automatically grant to us and our sub-licensees (and warrant that the licensor of such rights has expressly granted to us and our sub-licensees) the worldwide, perpetual, royalty-free, fully paid-up, irrevocable, non-exclusive, sublicensable (through multiple tiers) right and license to have Access to, store, display, reproduce, use, disclose, transmit, view, reproduce, modify, adapt, translate, publish, broadcast, perform and display (whether publicly or otherwise), distribute, re-distribute, transmit, save and use  Your Content (in whole or in part) for any reason and/or purpose (whether commercial or non-commercial) by any and all means in any and all media, forms, formats, platforms and technologies now known or hereafter devised, invented, developed or improved in connection with the Service, Autodesk Materials or our business generally.

That quote is a part of a bigger statement


"(b)           Sharing Your Content.  The Service may permit or require you to share Your Content to one or more public area(s) designated for that purpose, including on our web site(s).  If that is the case, by uploading, posting, publishing, transmitting, displaying, distributing, emailing, saving,  sharing or otherwise transmitting or making available Your Content to a public area of the Service or through the Service to another public location:

(i)  you automatically grant to us and our sub-licensees (and warrant that the licensor of such rights has expressly granted to us and our sub-licensees) the worldwide, perpetual, royalty-free, fully paid-up, irrevocable, non-exclusive"   and so on.

If I am not wrong that part (i)  goes after "If that's the case" of sharing your content. Which you could not share I believe.


Later in paragraph  (c)  in case you don't want to share things


        " (c) Keeping Your Content Non-public.  The Service may also permit you to choose not to post or publish onto public area(s) designated for sharing (e.g., Your Content published into a private area on our web site(s) or, to the extent allowed by the Service, emailed to or Accessed by solely your authorized designees, or Your Content using our Software without posting or publishing onto a public area of the Service. In these situations, (i) we will not authorize Your Content to be shared with others publicly [although we cannot promise complete data  security (e.g., of cloud servers)]: (ii) you automatically grant to us and our sub-licensees (and warrant that the licensor of such rights has expressly granted to us and our sub-licensees) a perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, royalty-free, paid-up, worldwide, sublicensable (through multiple tiers) license to have Access to, store, display, reproduce, modify, use, disclose, distribute and transmit such Your Content for purposes of providing, maintaining, repairing, protecting, organizing and/or otherwise administering or providing to you products, services and/or features on the Service (e.g., allowing Your Content to be emailed to or Accessed by your authorized designees),to comply with applicable laws/regulations/legal proceedings, in the ordinary course of our (or our designated third parties’) providing, improving and/or modifying the Service or any of products and/or services, including  extracting, compiling, aggregating, synthesizing, using, and otherwise analyzing all or any portion of Your Content and information, and to disclose such Content and information and the results of any such analysis in aggregated form or any other form that does not specifically identify you unless emailed to or Accessed by your authorized designees or otherwise permitted by these Terms.  "

Still a bit confusing  but looks like they claim some rights only "for purposes of providing, maintaining, repairing etc"   
Although from my personal experience if any contract have something unclear it is always against you. They definitely might write it more straight.


« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 08:08:17 PM by kirk »

Wishgranter

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2012, 08:12:19 PM »
kirk, do you have a idea how costly is to maintain service like this in a day - month  ?
 They buy a LOT of servers and give it for free ??
do you think that a so big player will give something for free to everyone  ???

An as mentioned the quality of the data can be used for home use, but NOT for profesional work. a interesant whitepaper will come out, they you will understand it better, im there under NDA, so cannot say anything except PSCAN is ..........  :-)

Show me at least 2 whitepapers that 123CATCH review on sientistic approarch..... have noone seen, why is that possible ?
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kirk

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2012, 08:37:08 PM »
kirk, do you have a idea how costly is to maintain service like this in a day - month  ?
 They buy a LOT of servers and give it for free ??
do you think that a so big player will give something for free to everyone  ???

This puzzles me too.   This and better texture quality/photo stitching are going to make me buying  Photoscan.  Just have some doubts that Autodesk doesn't allow to use 123 commercially. They tell you can on their forum. Who knows, perhaps they just want to make the whole idea of photogrammetry more popular.   

jedfrechette

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2012, 08:49:48 PM »
kirk, do you have a idea how costly is to maintain service like this in a day - month  ?
 They buy a LOT of servers and give it for free ??
do you think that a so big player will give something for free to everyone  ???

I don't see how that is relevant, lots of companies provide costly services that they don't charge users for because they see other benefits from them.

I'm no lawyer, but kirk does appear to be correct that you are only licensing your content to Autodesk under certain circumstances. I certainly don't see anything in their TOS about assigning copyright to them.

An as mentioned the quality of the data can be used for home use, but NOT for profesional work. a interesant whitepaper will come out, they you will understand it better, im there under NDA, so cannot say anything except PSCAN is ..........  :-)

I'm looking forward to this. Will it be published in a peer-reviewed journal?

Show me at least 2 whitepapers that 123CATCH review on sientistic approarch..... have noone seen, why is that possible ?

Here are a number of papers, some of which directly compare PhotoScan and 123D Catch. WARNING: Search results provided by an expensive to operate "free" service.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=123d+catch
Jed

Wishgranter

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2012, 10:39:22 PM »
1. Autodesk have aquired few firms in last 2-3 years, that what you get as 123CATCH is a toy, not for serious work (they have very interesant portfolio for photogrametry, but still not ready for PRO market and sure will not be free ) 
  - my own opinion, im could use it ( 123CATCH, Photomodeler Scanner )  but results are far from something useable, yes im do a very complicated stuff therefore im need a specialized tool like Pscan. As few other say, they use it on daily basis, on commercial work, and they are happy with that. If Pscan is something not for you - are you merely a hobbist then use 123 or what ever free stuff. but if want WORK, you need tools like PSCAN or PSCAN PRO, your clients will ask for things that free stuff canot give you.... And as was mentioned here, it exist few other solutions, but when you compare PRICE/PERFORMANCE you get that pscan is best here.....Photogrametry for stereopairs that have been aquired by autodesk cost 5.000 EUR + 500/EUR year subscription, no LITE version - without the GIS functions like PRO of Photoscan, so you could not do in it nothing except creating a view on that data, for all other you need external app - problems with workflow, conversions etc.
If 123 CATCH was so "perfect" do you think they would buy for heavy money firms in this area and then give it to clients for free ?????????? Propably as mentioned, they want give  people a toy, that people get in touch with photogrametry.......


2. Yes papers will be out, when cannot say. but have seen few things, and it say a LOT of what to choose. Is not in my power to say anything about it....

3. If you have time search PRECISE link to that, have searched, but nothing special, just that they use it, not the quality coparsion, if you know precise link, let us know.

4. Debating about what solution is better and what whorse can be discused, but what you do with that data ? personaly, im happy that PSCAN exist, if you not happy go and teach about photogrametry, then, just then is here place for discusion. If you go up and read, even the KRIS understand it that is not a TOY like 123. its need a lot of background info and tests for your pipeline, every use has its pros and cons, im workin with it 1,5 year, and now im can say im good in that......

5. is on the lawyers that they read it, but believe me, autodesk is not dumb, they know what they do..... 

HAWK...
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jedfrechette

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2012, 12:12:15 AM »
3. If you have time search PRECISE link to that, have searched, but nothing special, just that they use it, not the quality coparsion, if you know precise link, let us know.

How about the 5th link from the search I gave?

"3D Models from the Black Box: Investigating the Current State of Image-Based Modeling"
https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/courses/compsci715s2c/resources/relatedwork/ImageBasedModellingBenchmark/StateOfImageBasedModelling_WSCG2012_NguyenEtAl.pdf

It's a paper presented at this conference:

http://wscg.zcu.cz/wscg2012/Papers.htm

It directly compares 123D Catch, PhotoScan, Hyper3D, and an in-house system. Although the quality assessment is qualitative, it nicely illustrates how the strengths and weakness of different algorithms are exposed by different datasets.


Note, there is no need to be so defensive. I'm not claiming 123D catch, or PhotoScan for that matter, is perfect. Clearly they can both outperform the other in specific cases. I just don't think it's useful to spread false information and dismiss either as a "toy" without presenting any data to support your position.
Jed

Wishgranter

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2012, 01:28:51 AM »
No offense but...

hmm, this one IS a "scientific" but it seems that they don?t know a lot about photogrametry :-)

1. resampling of images is against basic principles, yes can be done in lower but its need to be shooted with setting in the responsible camera - half of the sensor resolution, quarter as a possibility
But have tested resamplig of data, and it could go from aprox 5-6 Mpix, under this the scene was junk.. original images were 18Mpix, im wotking sometimes with 7Mpix on BIG scenes.. ( they used aprox 3 mpix images...


2. the other thing is they used a small bird with mostly uniform AND glare background, and small resolution. it depend on structure of objects, thats mean is not enought points (features ) recognized =  high error on aligment, or just junk.. therefore is idel to use checkerboard, or something that give the eingine points-features on what it can do the align process ( basic of photogrametry too ) 
The bird was just on aprox 40 % of the images as far could recognize - too low !!! see other here how they shoot it for good results.........


 https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/courses/compsci715s2c/resources/relatedwork/ImageBasedModellingBenchmark/StateOfImageBasedModelling_WSCG2012_NguyenEtAl.pdf

3. If can find more, then put it here, all can learn something from it..

Better to see the whitepapers on agisoft wiki, how they compare it to laser scaner  or white/structured light solution....
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marco82

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Re: Why photoscan over 123Dcatch ? newbie
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2012, 02:26:06 PM »
123D said:

This software is provided 'as-is', without any express or implied warranty.  In no event will the authors be held liable for any damages   arising from the use of this software.
 
Permission is granted to anyone to use this software for any purpose, including commercial applications, and to alter it and redistribute it freely, subject to the following restrictions:
 
  1. The origin of this software must not be misrepresented; you must not claim that you wrote the original software. If you use this software in a product, an acknowledgment in the product documentation would be appreciated but is not required.   2. Altered source versions must be plainly marked as such, and must not be misrepresented as being the original software.   3. This notice may not be removed or altered from any source distribution.